The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:29 with the Llywydd (Elin Jones) in the Chair.

Statement by the Llywydd

Welcome, all, to this Plenary session this afternoon. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are set out on your agenda.

1. Questions to the First Minister

Questions to the First Minister is our first item this afternoon, and the first question is from Rhys ab Owen.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Thank you very much, Llywydd, and good afternoon, First Minister.

The Maintenance of New Housing Estates

Rhys ab Owen AS: 1. Will the Welsh Government commit to the adoption of the maintenance of new housing estates by local authorities? OQ58078

Mark Drakeford AC: Good afternoon to the Member.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, our programme for government includes a commitment to reform the way in which estate charges are levied for public open spaces and facilities. Current arrangements are over complex and too often unfair. We will bring forward proposals for reform, for both new and existing estates.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Brif Weinidog. This particular issue is from an area that you know probably very well and you probably spent some time there during the recent elections—the Mill estate in Canton. Now, the residents there have to pay an annual fee of £102 for the maintenance of a park that borders the estate, unadopted highways and green spaces and so on. And, of course, this is on top of the council tax they need to pay. Now, I know my friend Hefin David has done a lot of work with this over the years, because these residents don't even receive a detailed breakdown of what they need to pay, and, of course, they're paying for services that other people living in Canton are receiving, in effect, for free through the local authority.
Now, the Mill was held up as good practice, quite rightly, by the Welsh Government, of a mixed estate with affordable housing and freehold purchasing. Will the Welsh Government commit to bringing this bad and unfair practice to an end by encouraging and facilitating the adoption of maintenance by local authorities? Diolch yn fawr, Brif Weinidog.

Mark Drakeford AC: Thank you to Rhys ab Owen for that supplementary.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'm very proud of the Mill site; I've visited it many times. It will create 800 new homes in the centre of Cardiff on a brownfield site. It's a tribute in many ways to our former colleague Edwina Hart, who managed to bring about an innovative financing regime that means that the 400 affordable homes on the site involve no social housing grant at all, and that is overseen by Tirion, a not-for-profit community benefit society responsible for the development of those much-needed social homes. The site is complex because of its mixed tenure. Privately-owned houses will have been sold on the basis of estate charges set out at the time of sale. Tirion is responsible for the communal amenities available to all of the estate.
I've got some better news for the Member because I see that Tirion have written to residents in recent days, lowering the charge from £102 to £80, providing every resident with an itemised bill. And the charges are not simply for the upkeep of a play area, as has sometimes been alleged. Absolutely crucially, it is also for the maintenance of flood defences for that whole site. It's called 'riverbank', Llywydd; the clue is in the name, as they say. It is an area, inevitably, where flooding is a possibility, and where flood defences therefore are very important.
In the original question from the Member, and in his follow-up question, he asked if we would give a guarantee that local authorities would pick up the costs of maintenance of new housing estates. We won't do that, Llywydd. That would be to create a moral hazard for developers of a sort that would be entirely unwelcome. If a developer believed that no matter how shoddy the work they carried out, no matter how poor the standard of communal facilities it provided, there was a guarantee that the public purse would pick that up and put it right, there's no incentive at all for them to do the job in the way that we want it to be done. We will reform the system for new and existing housing estates, but the costs are likely to continue to be shared. More undertaken by the local authority, I agree with that—there is more that local authorities should do. But on the idea that they should solely become responsible, when there are companies that have responsibilities and residents who have responsibilities, I think a tripartite system will continue to be the way in which a better system can be designed for the future.

Peter Fox AS: I thank the Member for South Wales Central for raising the issue, and, as the Member has just said, it is important that local authorities do all they can to move forward with the adoption of housing estates. But I take the point that the First Minister made, that there is a responsibility on the developers to complete the work in an appropriate fashion. It's also important that developers play their role too, and there are many examples of responsible companies contributing to new housing estates, as expected—through play parks, community facilities, et cetera. However, Llywydd, there are too many examples of local authorities not receiving the full amount that they are due via section 106 contributions. I'm sure many Members, across the Chamber, can recall examples of this in their own constituencies. There are also instances where developers do not deliver the amount of social housing promised during the planning application stage, instead re-evaluating the number of dwellings to be built on the land during the building process itself, often quoting necessity to do so on the grounds of viability. And this leads to ever-increasing social housing waiting lists. First Minister, will the Welsh Government explore ways to boost the powers available to local authorities to ensure that all housing developers fully play their role in unlocking the potential of our communities? And how is the Government working with developers to encourage the building of important social infrastructure, as well as the new housing? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, all of those are really important points that Peter Fox makes, and I know that he will speak from experience of having had to negotiate these agreements. He's right—there are many responsible building companies out there, with Tirion I referred to in the context of the Mill site in Cardiff being one of them. But there are too many examples, which he will know, and we could all of us quote from our own constituency responsibilities, where developers do not complete the deal that they themselves have entered into with local authorities. My colleague Julie James is very well aware of the need to make sure that agreements freely entered into, and planning permissions provided on the basis of those agreements, are honoured,in order to make sure that we achieve our ambitious targets for affordable and social housing here in Wales. And the Welsh Government continues to take a very direct and active part in shaping the policy platform for the future, to make sure that those responsibilities are properly discharged.

Hefin David AC: If I can come back to the premise of the question, which was the regulation of estate management companies, these companies are not well regulated—in fact, they're barely regulated at all. The charges people face can have no cap, and, very often, the work is shoddy, and, where land is not adopted, it's sold to the estate management company, who then charge residents on top of their council tax. The charge in Cwm Calon in Ystrad Mynach is £162, which is higher than in Cardiff, for areas of green land that, really, the council could do. It's unacceptable. I had a meeting with the Minister Julie James and she said that she's waiting for the UK Government to act, and then will introduce a legislative consent motion to address the gaps that may be in that provision. We really need action here. Would the First Minister consider taking action through the Welsh Government's legislative powers if the UK Government fail to address this in good time?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I thank Hefin David for raising those points and for the persistence with which he has followed this issue during the previous Senedd term and into this one. He is right to say that unacceptable and unfair practices can be observed in parts of Wales, which are possible because of the unregulated nature of estate management companies and the charges that they can raise. There are two ways in which the Welsh Government will aim to tackle these issues. We are, indeed, continuing to work with the UK Government. We are told that legislation will be introduced later in the current Parliament in order to implement the Law Commission's recommendations on leasehold reform, and that will provide a parity of rights for freeholders, equivalent to those currently enjoyed by leaseholders, that will allow them the right to apply to a tribunal to challenge the fairness of estate charges or to appoint a new manager to manage the provision of services covered by estate rent charges. But, at the same time, we will also, in our own building safety legislation, which we intend to introduce later in this Senedd term, include estate management companies in the proposed registration and licensing scheme for residential property management companies, and that will help to eliminate some of the abuses of the current system to which Hefin David pointed.

The Rights of Disabled Children

Sioned Williams MS: 2. Will the First Minister outline the Government's strategy to protect the rights of disabled children in South Wales West? OQ58096

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Sioned Williams for the question. Llywydd, since the start of devolution, this Senedd has led the way in promoting the rights of all children. We remain committed to the principles of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. This means ensuring that the rights of all children and their needs are met and that they are treated equally.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, First Minister. Parents of two disabled children in my region have contacted me following their difficulty in ensuring suitable childcare. The children have been attending a Flying Start nursery, where there is support available, but now that they are over four years of age the parents were expected to pay three times more for care over the school holidays than children without additional needs would be paying. So, instead of £44, the cost of the care was £146 per child, and that's a total of £292 per day and it's unaffordable. Following pressure by my office and their social worker, they've heard that there will be some support by the Neath Port Talbot multi-agency early years panel. But it's been very difficult to access information about support, and groups that support disabled children in my region tell me that the lack of qualified and affordable care is a common and long-standing problem that creates a great deal of inequality. I'm pleased to see that reviewing these services and identifying the barriers to support will be a priority in the Government's new learning disability strategy, but how will you ensure that this much-needed support is available, is accessible and that it will be available now for the parents of disabled children?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I thank the Member for the supplementary question, Llywydd. If she would like to write to me on the particular case that she's raised, then I'd be happy to look into the circumstances there. More generally, I've seen figures that demonstrate that almost 600 children with disabilities in her region are in receipt of services now in the area of childcare, and that number has increased over the years, and it's increasing because the Welsh Government is funding the sector, providing enhanced funding, in order to create more opportunities for children with disabilities to access the services that they need, and we do that in partnership with local authorities and with the sector too. The way to increase the number of children able to access that support is to do more with buildings so that they are appropriate for the children, but also to train those working in the area so that they have the skills that they need in order to provide services to children with disabilities. We continue to work in that area. If there are more ideas on doing more in the future, then we are eager to hear them and to do that.

Altaf Hussain AS: People with a learning disability suffer more significant isolation due to misunderstandings between residential care settings and supported living services where people are supported within their own tenancies. Can the First Minister outline the ways people with a learning disability and their family/carers will be at the heart of designing the services they need? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I'm pleased to be able to say to the Member that just this afternoon my colleague Julie Morgan will be making an oral statement on the learning disability action plan. That plan has been drawn up with the direct and full engagement of those who work in the sector, those who provide services for people with a learning disability, and particularly with those organisations who speak on behalf of people who have a learning disability. I'm sure the Member will be listening carefully to what the Deputy Minister has to say and will no doubt have questions for her if he thinks that there is more that could be done in the particular circumstances to which he has referred.

Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

Questions now from party leaders. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Thank you, Presiding Officer. Last week, in response to a topical question that my colleague James Evans put down, First Minister, the economy Minister said that the Welsh Government had spent £4.25 million purchasing a farm in mid Wales, in his words, to secure a permanent home in Wales for the Green Man Festival. The next day, the festival said that there are no plans to move the Green Man Festival from the Glan Usk estate to Gilestone Farm. These two statements are polar opposite. Which is correct, First Minister?

Mark Drakeford AC: They're both correct, Llywydd, because they're certainly not polar opposites. There is no plan to move the festival itself from its current successful site, but there is more that those who are responsible for the festival believe that they can do to contribute to the economy of that part of Wales, building on the success of their business. To do that they need more space in which to be able to develop those further possibilities. That's what lies behind the arrangements. I read the transcript of my colleague Vaughan Gething's exchanges on the floor here last week. That's what motivates all of that—it is to build on one of the most successful businesses that we have in that part of Wales. I'm surprised, Llywydd, to find the Welsh Conservatives so adamantly opposed to a successful business.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Not at all. Not at all, First Minister. In fact, if the model does prove to be successful, we will be the first to commend you for doing that. But many businesses in Wales who apply for Welsh Government funding have to provide business plans, have to provide robust financial projections, and, ultimately, they then either get the nod or they get the rejection of that money being made available. What we did learn last week was that there is no business plan because that has not been submitted; it is being worked up, as the Minister said on the Record, which you have read, First Minister. So, how is it that the Green Man Festival can secure £4.25 million-worth of Government support with no business plan, when any other business here in Wales would have to submit that very necessary piece of information to acquire even a fraction of that money to support their business plans?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, of course, Green Man Festival has not got £4.25 million at all. What there is is an asset the Welsh Government holds that is worth more than that sum of money and which is, for the short term, leased back to the original owner in order that they can complete the bookings that they have in their tourism hospitality business and to make sure that the crops that have been planted at that farm are harvested this year. From the very beginning, we knew that the businesses plan from those who are responsible for the festival would be delivered to the Welsh Government in June of this year, and that is what we still expect. We are working, Llywydd, with a trusted partner. We are working with a company that the Welsh Government has known and worked alongside over an extended period of time, as it has grown to be the fifth most successful festival of its kind anywhere in the United Kingdom. We hold the land against the business plan and we will continue to scrutinise the business plan to see whether the objectives that the company have discussed with us can be delivered through it. In the meantime, the public has an asset, which it is able to dispose of, either in the way that we hope, by supporting that business to do more, or, if we aren't able to do it in that way, that asset remains and can be realised in other ways.

Andrew RT Davies AC: First Minister, the response that the economy Minister gave last week indicated that the Green Man was an exclusive tenant or buyer—it depended on the business plan that came through. Those were his words, and they're on the record. So, there was no other competitive tendering process, there was no other going to the market to offer other facilities to other operators in mid Wales—£4.25 million was made available to the Green Man Festival, in effect to secure them a permanent home. Now, I believe the festival is a successful festival, and I want to see it prosper. But when I get approached by other businesses who have come to look for support from the Welsh Government—financial support—and they have to rightly provide that information with business plans to secure that support, one now has to question: has the remit of the Welsh Government changed so that as long as you're deemed a trusted company or festival, you will secure that money? Because that's the impression you've given here today, that if you are a trusted business or festival organiser, we'll put millions on the table for you and allow you to bring the business plan forward at a later date. You can't have it two ways, First Minister. What's it going to be?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I've got used, over the many weeks of doing this, to the fact that the leader of the opposition very rarely listens to any answer that is provided, and simply ploughs on with whatever pre-prepared question he has in front of him, because I said exactly the opposite of what he has just suggested. I did my best to explain to him—I'll try again—that no money at all has gone to the Green Man Festival. But shall I say that to you again, just so that you don't manage to misunderstand it a third time? No money at all has gone to the Green Man Festival. So, Llywydd, is that clear enough, because I think that would help the leader of the opposition to sort out his misunderstanding?
On the basis of a business plan, which we had agreed from the outset will be submitted in June of this year, we will scrutinise the business plan and decide whether or not that site can be made available to that business for its future expansion plans. If it does, then there will be a legal basis on which that site can be used by the company, and the alternative bases were what my colleague was setting out for you last week. Neither of those has been agreed, because there is, as he said, a process still to be completed. In the meantime, no money has gone to the company, no land has gone to the company, no arrangement has been concluded with the company. Now, I hope, Llywydd—I hope; I don't think the Conservative group here hope—I hope that it will be possible to conclude that successfully, because this is a major success story for Wales. The Welsh Government will back that success, and we won't put up with those who seek to undermine it by trying to imply that an agreement has been entered into, when I've done my very best to set out for the Member this afternoon the actual basis on which arrangements have been discharged.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, Raheem Bailey, an 11-year-old boy who should have felt safe in his own school, had to have his finger amputated following a bullying incident. His mother, Shantal, has explained how Raheem has been subject to racial and physical abuse. Now, while Raheem's case, naturally, has shocked us all in Wales and has led to an outpouring of support for him from across the world, his experience is sadly by no means unique in Wales. Show Racism the Red Card's report into prejudice in the Welsh education system in 2020 found that 25 per cent of teachers had observed, responded to, or had a pupil report racial discrimination in the previous 12 months. Sixty-three per cent of pupils said they or someone they knew had been a target of racism. Is it time for the kind of wide-ranging inquiry into racism in Welsh schools that that report suggested, reviewing, for example, anti-racism training, resources for educators, data collection, bullying policies and Estyn's role in monitoring?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I agree with Adam Price that the case, as we've heard about it, has been a shocking one, and our thoughts are of course with that young person and his family. No incidents of bullying, whatever their motivation, are acceptable in schools in Wales, and the incident itself is now being investigated by the Gwent Police, with the assistance of the local authority and others, and we must allow that process to be concluded.
As well as thinking about that young person and their circumstances, I think it is right that we think of that wider school community as well. There are young people sitting examinations at the Abertillery Learning Community today; there will be other young people wanting to return to that set of arrangements for their education. It is a learning community, Llywydd, where Show Racism the Red Card has been very recently and very actively engaged in making sure that the training, the awareness, the resources and so on—I agree with everything that the Member said about that—were known about and that they were pursued in the Abertillery Learning Community.
Our anti-racist Wales action plan will be published next month. It will include a significant section dealing with anti-racist action in the education context. I myself am more interested in making sure that we can take those actions—actions that we have agreed, with so many voices with lived experience who've helped us to create that plan—than I am in yet another inquiry.

Adam Price AC: When asked what are the challenges when educating pupils about anti-racism in the report, 51 per cent of teachers responded that it was their lack of confidence, and 61 per cent claimed that it was lack of time in the classroom. Educators are under extreme pressure, and workload has been raised as an issue, for example in teacher retention. Anti-racism education is currently being delivered through the kind of workshops by Show Racism the Red Card that the First Minister just referenced. But with half of secondary schools now delaying the implementation of the new curriculum until September 2023, are wider concerns over workload and teacher stress also beginning to have an impact on the well-being not just of teachers but pupils who aren't getting the support and the kind of happy, nurturing and, indeed, safe environment that they deserve, as a result?

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, I absolutely understand when teachers say that they may lack confidence to know how to respond in what are complex territories, and where you may be anxious that you would inadvertently say the wrong thing and make the wrong response, and that you need to be better informed and trained in order to make sure that you can do that. It is absolutely part of our intention as a Government to make sure that all front-line staff, not just in teaching but elsewhere, can have that, so that the confidence issue can be addressed.
I respond less sympathetically to the issue of time. Dealing with racist behaviour or bullying behaviour is not something that you do additionally on top of your ordinary job, and that you need another hour at the end of the day to do it; it's part of what a teacher does all the time in every classroom every day in Wales. It has to be just part of the way in which we would expect anybody confronted with something that is clearly not acceptable and should not be happening—they have to be in a position that they respond to it as they see it in front of them. That's the sort of climate that we want to create in our classrooms in Wales, where everybody is able to have that safe and supported environment, where all our young people feel confident to be there, where teachers are prepared to intervene where they need to, in order to put things right when they see things going wrong. That should be just woven through the whole of the school day from start to finish, and I don't think it's reducible to an argument about not having enough time to do it.

Adam Price AC: First Minister, a first case of monkeypox in Scotland yesterday brings the total UK numbers up to 57. While health experts have stressed that risk remains low and that the disease can be contained, to some, this unusual multiplication of the virus will be familiar and seem like an echo of early 2020. The Joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS agency has expressed concern that some of the reporting and commentary on monkeypox has used language and imagery that is discriminatory, reinforcing homophobic and racist stereotypes that are not just wrong, but also undermine our ability to respond. Can you set out the public measures that you are taking as a Government, emphasising that, while anyone can get the disease, no-one should be prevented from coming forward to get the medical help they need and help us prevent onward transmission because they fear being blamed or stigmatised? We must reject prejudice in health, must we not, as firmly as we must do in education.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, I absolutely concur with what the leader of Plaid Cymru has said there, Llywydd. We've had no confirmed cases of monkeypox yet in Wales, but, when I discussed this yesterday with the health Minister and the deputy chief medical officer, he was very clear with us that this was just a matter of time. Wales is not immune from a disease of this sort. We're in the fortunate position, if that's the right way to put it, that, with cases occurring elsewhere in the United Kingdom, we've been able to put our response in place in advance of cases coming to Wales, and that is exactly what we were discussing yesterday: the actions being taken by Public Health Wales, by our health boards, to mobilise a public health response for dealing with cases of monkeypox if and when they do arise in Wales. When they do, the fact that cases may predominantly arise in one part of the population is no guarantee at all that they don't arise in other parts of the population, and nobody should feel that they are inhibited from coming forward for the help that they will need for what is, as we are told, a rare and not normally an exceptionally serious condition, but a very unpleasant and disturbing one. Nobody should be prevented from coming forward for help by any of the way in which this may be poorly reported.

Recycling Rates

Vikki Howells AC: 3. What are the Welsh Government's priorities for further increasing recycling rates? OQ58108

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, building on Wales's success to date, our priorities are to deliver the 70 per cent target by 2024-25, to bring forward the regulations to increase business and public sector recycling, to increase the recycling of key materials and to work with partners to accelerate the move to a circular economy.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you, First Minister, for that answer. Recent statistics show that Wales was the only part of the UK to maintain its excellent recycling rates during the course of the pandemic, and I'd like to thank every Welsh citizen and council worker who did their bit to make that possible. Another remarkable achievement is the fact that food waste here in Wales is converted via anaerobic digestion, creating sufficient power for 12,000 Welsh homes. First Minister, I know that you share my ambition to make what is good even better, not least by reducing food waste in the first place. So, can I ask how is Welsh Government engaging with both businesses and public sector bodies throughout the supply chain to reduce food waste?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, Vikki Howells makes an important point there. In the waste hierarchy set out by the Welsh Government, the first thing we aim to do is to reduce waste in the first place, before we go on to reuse, repair and recycle, and reducing food waste has all sorts of other advantages beyond the narrowly environmental.
During the pandemic, Llywydd, we were able to do more to work with FareShare Cymru to increase the coverage of their work with the food supply chain and therefore to redirect surplus food. As a result, they are now supplying over 200 organisations, and we're expanding coverage further to the whole of Wales. During the month of April, I was able to visit, with my colleague Jane Hutt, a fantastic project in the town of Barry where food secured through FareShare Cymru is made available to people, who, very sadly, in the cost-of-living crisis we are facing, need to use those facilities even more than in the past.
In the previous 12 months, Llywydd, by working with FareShare Cymru, they have been able to redistribute 882 tonnes of food, which contributes to nearly 900,000 meals—food that would otherwise have gone to waste. And it's a very good example, I think, of the way, here in Wales, in which we are able to mobilise a very progressive third sector organisation and the partnerships they have with supermarkets and other businesses and local volunteers, but doing it within a framework supported by the local authority and by the Welsh Government.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: First Minister, I'm sure that you would join me in thanking the 7,000 people in Wales who have signed up to take part in the Big Plastic Count. Their selflessness and their efforts will now provide a national snapshot of the plastic waste problem that actually plagues our communities. However, there is no denying that further action needs to be taken to tackle the plastic plague. WRAP Cymru worked with Monmouthshire County Council recently to review their choice of switching from single-use plastic milk bottles to reusable glass milk bottles. It found that the move to glass resulted in cost savings of 39 per cent for the local authority and a 25 per cent reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Rhondda Cynon Taf alone recycled 750 tonnes of glass last year—enough to make bottles to contain 2.7 million pints of milk. Now, I think that this is a really good example to follow. So, First Minister, speaking of supermarkets, would you consider working with them in an effort to see whether they would transition to the greater use of glass instead of plastic? Diolch.

Mark Drakeford AC: That's a really important point that the Member makes. I join with her in congratulating those people who've signed up to the Big Plastic Count. I do remember, Llywydd, myself taking a group of young people across the beach, Tenby North beach, in the year 2000 as part of the millennium great plastic count, and having it repeated so that we can see where patterns are changing, where progress is being made and where ground is being lost, is a very important part of how we can plan to do better in the future.
We know that young people in schools have led the way in looking for recyclable glass bottles for milk, and paper straws instead of plastic straws. Young people themselves have been fantastic advocates for that. And doing more with the supermarkets—my colleague Lesley Griffiths, meets with them regularly. And as I said, a number of supermarkets are themselves genuinely wishing to be progressive in doing more in the packaging that they use, in the reuse of material that otherwise would go into landfill, and we can certainly take up the idea that the Member has mentioned this afternoon.

Question 4, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Llywydd. What are the Welsh Government's priorities for—? Sorry, wrong question—that was No. 3.

The Tourism Sector

Russell George AC: 4. What is the Welsh Government doing to support the tourism sector in Wales? OQ58074

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Russell George for that, Llywydd. We support the sector through advertising Wales at home and abroad, through revenue support and our £50 million Wales tourism investment fund. Our visitor levy will support the sector by increasing local authorities' investment in the future success of the industry.

Russell George AC: Thank you, First Minister, for your answer. I want to raise the issue as regards many holiday let businesses in mid Wales that I think will become unviable if the Government's plans to increase the threshold to 182 days per year let come into being. I'd be grateful if you would provide advice to Mr Paul Martin, one of my constituents, who has outlined his case to me many times and also outlined his case to the BBC politics show on Sunday this week. Mr Martin converted outbuildings on the site of his B&B. The cottages have never been lived in. In fact, the utilities across all the cottages are joined and planning permission does not allow for the properties to be used for residential dwelling use. The holiday season is, of course, shorter in many parts of Wales, including in Kerry where Mr Martin's business is situated, so it would be near impossible for Mr Martin to let his four properties each for 182 days per year. Under your changes, Mr Martin would have to put his properties into the council tax system. Under the council tax system, increased charges would make the business unviable and the business would, sadly, have to close. However, despite the business closing, Mr Martin would still have to pay the higher rate for empty properties, and the cottages would become not able to convert and would remain a liability for Mr Martin and his business. Can you advise Mr Martin how he should proceed?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I'll respond to the general point, because I can't be expected to give advice to somebody about their specific circumstances. In general, the position is this: where businesses are businesses, then of course they should be regulated under a business system, and they should take advantage, where they can, of any reliefs from business rates. If you're not letting a property for half of the year, then I don't think you're properly regarded as a business. You can continue to operate, of course you can. Nobody is saying that the business doesn't continue; it's simply that, in those circumstances, you should pay council tax and make that part of your business plan. That, I think, is a fair way for people to proceed. It is a way of distinguishing between businesses that are businesses in the full sense of that term from businesses that, as we have heard, and have heard many times on the floor of this Senedd, arrange their affairs in a way to take advantage of small business rate relief and to deny the contribution to local authority funds that is necessary to support them in their wider operation.

Ken Skates AC: First Minister, sport and culture are obviously two key drivers for tourism in Wales and, here in north Wales, we have some golden opportunities to promote tourism through sport and culture in the coming weeks. Would you confirm that you and your entire Government will be offering full and pretty fierce support for Wrexham Association Football Club in the National League play-offs and also to the people of Wrexham county borough in the campaign to win the UK City of Culture status competition?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I thank Ken Skates for that question. It does take me back to the terms of the original question, asking us what we do to support the tourism sector, and one of the things that we do is to support the sector in extending the range of things that it has on offer and to extend the season over which it operates. And when Wrexham becomes, as I certainly hope it will, the city of culture, when that is announced, as we believe, on the thirty-first of this month, then it will have the support of the entire Government behind it. The Minister for culture wrote to the local authority very recently, setting out the support that the Welsh Government will offer—financial support and other forms of support—so that that could be conveyed to the committee responsible for making the decision, so that they would know that. If they choose Wrexham, as I hope they will, then they can do so knowing that the Welsh Government will be four-square behind the bid and the year of activities that would follow.
Llywydd, I don't lack advice on the fortune of Wrexham Association Football Club. A source not very far from where I am standing keeps me very well informed, and, just before First Minister's questions arrived today, we were discussing the relative merits of Grimsby and other potential opponents for Wrexhamand where they lay in the league and who had played them and what their results had been. So, I'm very pleased indeed to support Wrexham Association Football Club. They've had a fantastic season, and I hope it ends with the success that the club deserves.

Question 5 [OQ58081] has been withdrawn. Question 6, Carolyn Thomas.

Cost of Living

Carolyn Thomas AS: 6. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the impact of the rising cost of living on people in north Wales? OQ58086

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, the cost-of-living crisis affects people across north Wales. Surging inflation, tax increases and a failure to protect incomes will result in a fall in living standards and put significant pressure on vulnerable households. We are doing all we can, within the powers we have, to provide support to them.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you, First Minister. Households in north Wales are facing an unprecedented cost-of-living crisis through no fault of their own. Day-to-day costs are going up as inflation rises. With inflation at its highest level since March 1982, when it was 9.1 per cent, the solutions offered by Conservative MPs have been insulting. We've been told to get better jobs, we've seen a Tory MP say that people can't cook or budget properly, and we've got a Prime Minister whose response to a pensioner riding the bus to keep warm, all day long, because she can't afford to switch on her heating, was to remind us that he introduced the 24-hour freedom bus pass. I don't believe that they live in the real world, or that they ever have done. Does the First Minister agree with me that it's time for the Tories in Westminster to take this crisis seriously and offer protection to all those that are suffering?

Mark Drakeford AC: The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us that it would be 'silly' of him—that's the word he used—it would be 'silly' of him to offer further help to people facing the cost-of-living crisis. As Carolyn Thomas said, you sometimes think—well, you don't think, you know—that these people do not live in the same world as the people who face those dreadful choices between whether they can afford to eat or whether they can meet other basic necessities. Carolyn Thomas said, Llywydd, that inflation had risen to 9.1 per cent. For the bottom 10 per cent of the population, the Institute for Fiscal Studies estimates that inflation is already 10.9 per cent, because they have to spend 11 per cent of their total budget on gas and electricity. That's the reality of life for far too many households in Wales, and it deserves the sort of response that only the UK Government, with its responsibilities, with its fiscal firepower, is able to mount.
Here in Wales, we go on adding to the repertoire of things that we can mobilise from our own resources. It's sometimes forgotten, Llywydd, that COVID has not gone away and that that has had a disproportionate impact on people from low-income households as well. Just in the last week, we have made 4,073 payments under our self-isolation scheme—a scheme abandoned in England, by the way—putting £2.5 million into the pockets of people who, by definition, are those who need it the most. In that same week, we've made 3,653 COVID payments—COVID payments alone—from our discretionary assistance fund, which, again, is a fund not available across the border in the United Kingdom, with another £260,000 finding its way into the budgets of households who need it the most. If we can mobilise across the range of things we have available to us, there is no excuse at all for the UK Government failing to deliver a windfall tax, failing to deliver a social tariff, failing to find ways in which general taxation rather than fuel bills pick up those social and environmental costs, failing to do so many of those things that energy companies and others are themselves urging the UK Government to do.

Small, Independent Brewers

Joel James MS: 7. What initiatives is the Welsh Government undertaking to help small, independent brewers? OQ58070

Mark Drakeford AC: Small, independent brewers are supported through a wide range of advice and finance available to micro, small and medium-sized businesses in Wales. That help comes, for example, through Business Wales and the Development Bank of Wales.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister. As you know, this Government is introducing a digital system in its deposit-return scheme that will be incompatible with the DRS schemes being introduced in England and Northern Ireland. This incompatibility will create barriers to trade, increase production costs and, in particular, reduce the choice and availability of beer here. Independent brewers in Wales produce around 19 million pints for the UK market, and increased costs for the new labelling requirements, as well as annual registration and producer fees, and the impact of return containers will likely consume all of their profit, which is typically less than 8 per cent per bottle. Change of production lines to generate country-specific items or stock keeping unitsis very costly, therefore, small brewers will most likely no longer be able to sell in both the Welsh and English markets, thus massively reducing their overall sales. The online take-back service is also likely to be unachievable for small producers, and this will pretty much end small, independent brewers being able to afford to sell here in Wales. First Minister, as you know, the beer market is exceptionally competitive, and independent brewers are already struggling to compete with large, international producers. What is this Government doing to ensure that there's a joined-up approach on a deposit-return scheme and that Welsh brewers will not be disadvantaged by the different DRS schemes? Thank you.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, I think it's important to set out some of the background to the issue that the Member highlights. We had agreed a joint set of proposals for a deposit-return scheme with the UK Government. We took part in a joint consultation on those joint set of proposals with them, and it is only in the post-consultation design of the DRS scheme that the UK Government for England decided to move away from the scope of materials that we had agreed with them would be included within the scheme. So, when the Member asks me what we are doing to secure a joined-up approach, his question is really to be directed to his colleagues in the UK Government, because it is they, not us, who changed their minds about a scheme that we had jointly agreed with them.
And just for those who weren't following the detail of the supplementary question closely, I should point out that what the Member is complaining of is that we will include glass bottles in our scheme, as they do in Scotland, whereas in England they have now decided not to do so. Maybe Janet Finch-Saunders, given the force with which she spoke about the importance of glass bottles today, could help the UK Government to come to a different conclusion on that matter.
Welsh companies will have to have different labelling now because the English Government has decided not to have a common scheme between Scotland, Wales and England. Because they will have to be compliant with the Scottish regulations, these are inevitable for Welsh businesses. It's not a matter of saying, 'If we went in with England, they wouldn't need to do it.' They'll be selling into the Scottish market, and they'll have to do it for them.
In the meantime, there are some mitigating measures that we will discuss with the sector and work with them. We can talk with them about the level of annual registration fee; we will discuss with them the design of the online aspects of the scheme; and we will talk with them about an approach to labelling requirements, so that we can mitigate the difficulties that the UK Government has now caused for small, independent brewers here in Wales.
But, in the end, Llywydd, let's not forget that the DRS is a form of extended producer responsibility. Businesses who place products on the market have to cover the costs of managing the waste of the products that they sell, and that includes recycling at the end of their intended use, and we will continue to pursue that objective here in Wales.

Community Interests and the Planning Process

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 8. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to protect community interests in the planning process? OQ58114

Mark Drakeford AC: I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for the question, Llywydd. Ensuring that development is based on a plan-led approach leads to communities having the housing, jobs and infrastructure they need. By following such an approach, it's the communities themselves that decide the right way for them.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: May I draw the First Minister's attention to the Parc Del Fryn housing estate in Brynteg in my constituency? It's a development I've highlighted many times over the years, and it's attracted attention again now as more homes are built. It's a wonderful village—I'm not sure if the First Minister is familiar with it—and these look like ideal homes for young couples to buy or rent for the first time, to raise a family in them. But the reality is that local residents who need a house are prohibited from buying these properties because it's a holiday development, and the prices are way beyond their reach anyway. The cynic in me even sees the name, 'Parc Del Fryn', although being in Welsh, being a reflection of foreign holiday locations.
Now, permission was given for this over 10 years ago, so the hands of the current council are tied. But what can the First Minister do, as a matter of urgency, to ensure, through national planning regulations, that these kinds of developments can't be allowed to happen? Because, plainly speaking, it's an insult to local communities, particularly when we're facing a housing crisis.

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, just to say, I've received advice from our officials in the Government, and what they've told me about the specific example that the Member is talking about, what they've said to me is that the original planning consent was granted specifically for holiday homes. So, they can't sell them to people who want to live there throughout the year because it is only as holiday homes that the permission was granted in the first instance. If the application had been made for permanent residential homes on that site, perhaps they wouldn't have been permitted, in terms of that development. That's what I've heard.
Now, Anglesey and Gwynedd have a local development plan, a joint plan, and they're about to undertake a full review of that joint plan. I look forward to discussing all of the relevant issues in a meeting that I'll be holding with the leaders of local authorities across north Wales tomorrow. I am content to work with the local authorities if there's more that we can do to help them, particularly in the context of Anglesey now, when the United Kingdom Government once again has raised the possibility of the future of Wylfa Newydd. I remember the last time when we talked about the impact on housing on the island if that development were to go ahead.
So, the points that Rhun ap Iorwerth has made this afternoon, Llywydd, they are going to be even more pertinent and important in future if that scheme were to go ahead, and I am willing to discuss how we as a Government, in collaboration with local authorities, can do more to help in the context that Rhun ap Iorwerth has spoken about this afternoon.

The Climate Emergency

John Griffiths AC: 9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to tackle the climate emergency? OQ58111

Mark Drakeford AC: Llywydd, at the heart of the three-year budget approved by this Senedd there lies £1.8 billion capital investment in creating a national forest, sustaining biodiversity, decarbonising housing, prioritising renewable energy and preventing flooding. These are amongst the actions we are taking to tackle the climate emergency.

John Griffiths AC: Diolch, Prif Weinidog. I think, Prif Weinidog, that if we are to effectively tackle the climate emergency, we must properly protect areas such as the Gwent levels, and I thank you very much for your commitment, and indeed your colleague Julie James's commitment, to those levels, and indeed I've been very pleased to chair the Gwent levels working group. Would you agree with me, First Minister, that a great deal of good work has already been done through the Living Levels partnership, which has effectively engaged the local community, business, local authorities and a range of third sector organisations to work out the ideas and the actions necessary to build on the progress to date, and, further, that it's absolutely essential that we get the planning guidance and the planning systems right if we are to properly sustain and protect the unique Gwent levels for the future?

Mark Drakeford AC: Well, Llywydd, first of all, I'd like to thank John Griffiths for the work that he has done in chairing that group, and the group has achievements already, to its credit, in habitat restoration and management, and particularly in the points that John Griffiths made in terms of community engagement. Together with my colleague Julie James, there is more we know that we can do to support the work of the group and to support the preservation of the Gwent levels in a state that makes it fit for future generations.
The Minister for Climate Change recently approved the development of strategic planning guidance for the area. This will be the first time that we will have put into practice the 'Future Wales' policy approach for mainstreaming biodiversity and ecosystem resilience into planning policies within an area like the Gwent levels. It will be a pilot of that whole approach and I'm very glad indeed that we're able to do it in that very important landscape. The Minister has also provided Natural Resources Wales with nearly £3 million in additional funding to renew and increase the coverage of land management agreements. We know that land management agreements are absolutely essential to the Gwent levels, to make sure that work goes on to manage the habitat there and to enhance the biodiversity of the site of special scientific interest that it represents.
Thirdly, and finally, Llywydd, I recently met with Julie James to review the suitability of land that was acquired for the M4 relief road, so that now, instead of having it with concrete and tarmac poured all over it, it will be able to provide a contribution to biodiversity enhancements across the levels, to make sure, as I said, that they go on for future generations being that outstanding example of the sort of landscape that people have enjoyed over generations. We want to make sure they go on enjoying them in full and in good heart for the future.

Thank you, First Minister.

2. Business Statement and Announcement

The next item is the business statement and announcement. I call on the Trefnydd to make that statement. Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Diolch, Llywydd. I have one change to today's agenda. I have extended the length of the Counsel General's statement on justice in Wales to 45 minutes. Draft business for the next three sitting weeks is set out on the business statement and announcement, which can be found amongst the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Sam Rowlands MS: Good afternoon, Minister. I'd like to ask for a Welsh Government statement on maximising the potential of Wrexham's newly announced city status. I'm sure, Minister, you were as delighted as I was to hear the announcement that Wrexham will now be a city following Her Majesty the Queen's Platinum Jubilee celebrations. Of course, Minister, there are lots of fantastic things happening throughout Wrexham, as you'll be aware, and, as has already been mentioned, around Wrexham Association Football Club, who again will be playing at Wembley this weekend for the chance to be promoted to the football league. In addition to this, Minister, of course you'll be aware of many businesses thriving throughout Wrexham, on the industrial estate. I believe that this new status can raise the profile of Wrexham and help it go from strength to strength.So, will you join with me in congratulating all of those who enabled this to happen, but also allow for a Welsh Government statement to outline how we can ensure this new city status is maximised? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. You're quite right; there are many exciting things going on in my constituency of Wrexham at the moment. We won't say anything about the result on Sunday, but we're certainly looking forward to the semi-final of the play-offs on Saturday. I think acquiring city status for Wrexham is positive, but what I think is really important now is that Wrexham County Borough Council really grasp the opportunities, the economic opportunities particularly, that they certainly believed pursuing city status would bring. I've certainly looked at other towns that got city status—I think 20 years ago it was Newport, 10 years ago it was St Asaph, which you'll know very well—and I think it is really important that that ambition is there to grasp those economic opportunities.

Heledd Fychan AS: Trefnydd, last week a written statement was published announcing a £750,000 investment in libraries and museums. Of course, I welcome this very much, and it's good to see libraries and museums across Wales receiving investment. I would like to ask for an oral statement by the Deputy Minister for arts and sport, before the summer recess, providing further information on the Government's vision for local museums, and, specifically, progress on the development of a new national museums strategy. After all, Wales was the first nation in the United Kingdom to develop a national museums strategy in 2010. Work was done to develop a new strategy in 2017 and 2018—and I should declare that I was part of that process in my previous role—but the work was not completed. It would be beneficial to have an update, especially as museums are not statutory services, on how the Government is supporting the sector, and when the new strategy will emerge, as well as receiving an update on the implementation of recommendations made as part of the local museums review in 2015.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm very pleased you welcomed the additional funding that the Deputy Minister for culture and arts announced last week, as you say, in a written statement. I don't think there will be an opportunity to have an oral statement before the summer recess, but I'm sure, as we go through the next year of this term of Government, if the Deputy Minister does have further information about the strategy, she can bring it forward.

Mike Hedges AC: I want to ask for a Welsh Government statement on eating disorders. The 2018 eating disorders service review put forward an ambitious vision, based on earliest access to effective treatment and support in every part of Wales. Beat's new report finds that progress in expanding and improving eating disorders services has been very uneven. While access to treatment has improved in some areas, in others, it is still very limited. Can I ask for a Government statement and the publishing of a plan with timescales for achieving the vision of the 2018 eating disorders service review, so that everyone affected can access effective help quickly?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. We continue to prioritise investment for eating disorders services, and, since 2017, as I'm sure the Member is aware, health boards have received an additional £4.1 million to support improvements in those services, and particularly in waiting times. We will be targeting additional funding for eating disorders services from the increased mental health funding that has been secured for 2022-23. Funding has been provided to health boards specifically to reconfigure services towards earlier interventions, to work towards achieving the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence standards on eating disorders within the next two years, and also to develop plans to achieve a four-week waiting time across both adult and child services, as was recommended in the review.

Andrew RT Davies AC: Leader of the house, could I seek a statement from the Minister responsible for the blue badge disability scheme? I've recently been contacted by a constituent whose child is registered as blind, is under the age of three, and has cerebral palsy and requires constant physiotherapy. The regulations as laid out by the Welsh Government, which local authorities work to, are very prescriptive—and I can understand why they're prescriptive—but they seem to be completely irrelevant if you fall in that category of under three, for a child. And in this particular case of my constituent, regrettably, they are being refused a blue badge, despite obviously requiring to go for regular physiotherapy sessions, and with a blind child as well—you can imagine the stress and the grief that this causes the family.
I appreciate you can't speak on the specifics, because you need to have fuller details—and I will be writing to the relevant Minister on this—but I'd be grateful to understand if the Welsh Government is proposing any review of the blue badge scheme. If a statement could be forthcoming, could it touch on how that review might be undertaken and the terms of reference, so that we can capture young children in particular under the benefits of the scheme, which are there to make life easier for people who, obviously, need to be close to community halls, GP surgeries or any other place where a disability parking space might be available?

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I do think that the most appropriate way for you now is to write to the Minister for Economy around your specific constituent and the experiences that they've had. I'm not aware of any review, but, as I say, if you do write to the Minister for Economy, he'll be able to advise you.

Delyth Jewell AC: We will all be aware that it's No Mow May, and I'd like to ask for a statement setting out how the Government is taking this further, to reconnect people across Wales with the natural world on their doorstep. I'm proud to be the species champion for the shrill carder bee, the most endangered bumblebee in Wales and England. I'd really like more people, of all ages, to learn more about how conservation projects like Natur am Byth can help to avert the nature crisis we're in, but also to strengthen the sense of belonging that people can feel with the habitats that are all around us. We know that one in six species in Wales is threatened with extinction. If we don't do anything, so many bumblebees and butterflies and creatures will stop existing. But the great news is that we can do something about it, and there are ways in which people can get involved. So, can a statement please set out how people can find joy in the natural world, get a boost to their health and well-being, and find a sense of wonder in so many creatures, like the shrill carder bee? Thank you very much.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. I'm certainly very happy to take part in No Mow May—I think my garden's very appreciative of it, and I certainly am too. It's great that you are this species champion, as you say. It was also World Bee Day last Friday; I was very pleased to do a visit to some beehives in Buith Wells last Thursday to promote that. But I think you make a really important point—it's very important that we change how we manage our grasslands. I think Plantlife's No Mow May is an excellent campaign. That really helps people look at how they deal with nature, by just changing their behaviour, for instance. I know tomorrow the Deputy Minister for Climate Change is responding to a short debate, and that's going to look at the importance of managing grass verges and amenity grassland. I know Carolyn Thomas has really taken up the role of road verge and amenity grassland champion to support the better management. It just shows that we can all make little changes to really help our biodiversity.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Could we have a statement on measures that Welsh Government Ministers will take to urge the UK Government to raise the value of Healthy Start vouchers to meet the runaway cost of inflation? The UK Government last raised the value of the Healthy Start vouchers before the cost-of-living crisis hit, and it was only after, I have to say, an incredible amount of pressure from Marcus Rashford with his campaigning, food charities and, indeed, the Co-operative Party and the co-operative movement. A statement from the Welsh Government would send a very clear message of support for raising the value of these Healthy Start vouchers, and, frankly, avoiding babies and young children going hungry.
Could we have a debate on the Welsh Government commitment to food justice and on tackling the looming food poverty issue right across Wales, as well as the wider UK? It's estimated that across the UK, the sixth richest nation on earth, as many as 8 million people could be struggling to put food on the table and 500,000 have used foodbanks over the last year alone. So, a statement could advance the case for the right to food to be recognised by Government, for food strategies to be drawn up, for the designation of food champions in local government, a food strategy at local levels and more. We face a growing storm that is ripping through our communities, so Welsh Labour in Government and the Co-operative Party need to send stronger signals that we'll be there for those who are most exposed to this storm in every possible way we can.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you very much. The Healthy Start scheme is a welfare food scheme, which, as you're aware, is not devolved for Wales. However, the Deputy Minister for Mental Health and Well-being wrote to the Secretary of State, I think, at the end of last year, and has also written again to ask and really push for an uplift in the scheme. Isn't that just one way the UK Government could help with the cost-of-living crisis? I think the Deputy Minister is really keen to see Healthy Start eligibility until a child starts primary school—I think that would help—increasing the household income threshold to create consistency with that for free school meals. That would help support our most vulnerable children. So, there are lots of things that could be done. In fairness, I do think the Secretary of State has allowed their officials to engage with the Deputy Minister's officials to try and see where they can do more, and I know that those discussions are ongoing. The Deputy Minister has also asked her officials to explore devolving welfare foods, and we do intend to undertake an independent review of the Healthy Start scheme here in Wales later this year, in the autumn. 
In relation to food justice, again, 8 million people across the UK is a truly horrific figure. The Minister for Social Justice led a food poverty round-table, which I was very pleased to join, just the week before last, and we discussed the ongoing urgency of the cost-of-living crisis and the impact of rising prices, and, of course, the effect that high energy prices also has on food poverty. The Minister and I heard from representatives from some of our foodbanks, who were saying that they've had to completely rethink what food they give out in food parcels, because people can't afford to heat food, which is truly appalling. The Minister for Social Justice is looking at the funding. We have allocated £3.9 million to support action that really tackles the root causes of food poverty, building on the success of previous work that she's brought forward, and there will be an announcement soon on how the funding will be distributed this year.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, may I ask for two statements from the Welsh Government? The first on the difficulties and disparities still being faced by many disabled workers. According to research published in April last year, only 52.3 per cent of disabled people are in employment. This compares with 82 per cent of the able-bodied population. In Wales, the disability pay gap is a staggering 18 per cent, with disabled women most affected, earning on average 36 per cent less than their other counterparts. Can we, please, have a statement on what the Welsh Government is doing to encourage employers not to overlook skilled workers just because they have a disability, and to advocate the great benefits disabled workers can bring to a business or a line of industry?
Secondly, can I ask for a statement from the Welsh Government about the Queen's Platinum Jubilee celebrations? I know a lot of people have mentioned it today in the Chamber. In particular, I would like to know if any councils in Wales have been given extra funding for local Jubilee celebratory events or projects, and what guidance has been issued by the Welsh Government Ministers to local authorities on this issue. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. With regard to your last point, I am aware that, certainly, my own local authority did have funding to award to local groupsif they wanted to take part in Jubilee celebrations or organise a street party, et cetera. So, I'm presuming that that's happened right across Wales. As you know, the next debate will be led by the First Minister in relation to the Jubilee.
The Minister for Social Justice works very closely with organisations to ensure that people with disabilities are able to find employment. I would have thought one of the best things we ever had in Wales was Remploy, and I think it was very unfortunate the UK Government closed it down.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I would like to request a statement from you, Trefnydd, in your capacity as Minister for rural affairs. With the brutal and illegal conflict in Ukraine continuing to rumble on, I've been delighted to see the UK Government take leadership on the refugee crisis, with hundreds of families now being given the opportunity to rebuild their lives here in Wales and across the UK. However—and it was raised with the Minister for Social Justice last week—we do have a situation where there is no mechanism now to allow pets arriving from Ukraine to complete their isolation at home with their owners. This is even after all necessary checks and immunisations have been completed. My colleague Russell George raised this here last week, and I've heard of more instances where pets are now trapped in England and being moved around different places in England. So, what we want to see, really, is you make a statement on how the Welsh Government will work with the Animal and Plant Health Agency to urgently allow these beloved pets to be returned to their owners, just providing some small sense of their own home to families looking to rebuild their lives here in Wales. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. The Member hasn't got the position quite correct—[Interruption.]—but of course I absolutely understand that people fleeing the war in Ukraine want to have their pets close by. That's absolutely what we intend to do. The difference here in Wales is we don't have home containment. Pets will have to go into quarantine if they don't meet all the criteria. So, if a pet has been vaccinated against rabies, has a pet passport, has all the correct paperwork and is microchipped, they will absolutely be able to go with the family or with the person straight away. Home containment is very difficult to monitor and very difficult to enforce, so we are sticking with the approved quarantine units that have been there for many, many years. I have to make sure that our animals here in Wales are protected, the health of the animal coming from Ukraine is protected and, of course, that public health is protected also. So, we are expanding our quarantine facilities because we appreciate that we haven't got enough. I was telling the UK Government back in February they wouldn't have enough, and of course APHA, who I do obviously work very closely with, play an important role. But, things can go wrong, and whilst I appreciate it is a very low risk, I have to say there were 1,800 cases of rabies in Ukraine last year. We haven't had rabies in this country for 100 years. Whilst the risk is low, the impact of having such an animal disease in this country would be very, very significant.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Business Minister, I would like to ask for a statement, please, on the stopping of the use of genderless language during the drafting of legislation to prevent the unjust and dangerous erasure of women in policy and law. We have seen genderless language creep into our law making, and this has been again recognised by UK Government Minister Lord True, who has now released a statement on the matter. They have come to the conclusion that a number of drafting approaches are available to deliver the desired policy outcome while still using sex-specific language. One approach is to use sex-specific language to refer to the main case—for example, women—with the addition of further wording so that the provision also has the desired policy outcome for the less common cases. Using gender-neutral language can lead to the erasure of women in law and, in some cases, cause significant and insidious harms. I hope to see a statement from the Minister, please, business Minister, updating us all on what approach this Welsh Government is taking in relation to the drafting of legislation to prevent the erasure of women in order to stop the undoing of all the hard work over decades to protect women. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I certainly think this Government has absolutely led the way. If you think about our ending violence against women Bill, at the time it was absolute groundbreaking. I know the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution is working on accessibility to Welsh law and clarification, and he's in the Chamber and heard you, and I'm sure he can look at that as part of it.

I thank the Trefnydd. No, I do apologise.

Sorry, a bit premature on my part there—one more person to call that I've missed on my list here. Ken Skates. It might be about Wrexham.

Lesley Griffiths AC: I hope so.

Ken Skates AC: Diolch, Llywydd. Indeed it is. I was delighted to hear the First Minister's response to my question a little earlier, but I'd also be grateful if a statement could be forthcoming should Wrexham win the city of culture bid, outlining details of the Welsh Government's support, both financial and in-kind support, because I am in no doubt that the local council will be relying very heavily on the excellent major events unit in Welsh Government for support and advice.
Trefnydd, I'd also be grateful for a statement from the Minister for health regarding progress against the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board improvement plans that were published in March of 2021. And could I ask for another statement from the Minister for health confirming that the citizen voice body will be headquartered in north Wales? The chair of the body, of course, is very familiar with south-west Wales and mid Wales, and most of the NHS is headquartered in south-east Wales, and so it stands to reason that the citizen voice body should be headquartered in north Wales, where we have the largest health board and where, arguably, the NHS faces its greatest challenge. Diolch.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you. There were several questions there, but I'm certainly pleased to hear the First Minister listens to my ramblings about Wrexham Association Football Club with such depth and has such knowledge now. In relation to the city of culture bid, as the First Minister said, the announcement will be next Tuesday, and we very much hope Wrexham will win, and I'm sure the Deputy Minister for arts and culture will be very happy to do a statement if that is the case.
On your two questions around health, in respect of the establishment of the citizen voice body, no decisions have been taken as yet as to the location of any of its sites. I think once the citizen voice body recruitment is completed, the Minister for Health and Social Services will bring forward a location strategy around the decisions taken.
You ask for an update on the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board improvement plan, and, as you're aware, in the previous term of government, back in March 2021, a written statement was issued by the Government outlining the targeted intervention framework for the health board. This is something that, obviously, the Minister for Health and Social Services monitors very carefully. I am aware there are further discussions going on, and the Minister will ensure the health board update their website, because I think that hasn't been done for a few months, and I think it is really important that that's done. I know that their baseline assessment was completed, but it is really important that the website is updated so Members are able to access it. But if there is anything further from the Minister's meeting, I will ask her to issue a written statement.

I now thank the Trefnydd.

3. Debate: The Platinum Jubilee

The next item is the debate on the Platinum Jubilee, and I call on the First Minister to move the motion—Mark Drakeford.

Motion NDM8006 Lesley Griffiths
Supported by Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
Congratulates Her Majesty the Queen on the occasion of her Platinum Jubilee and pays tribute to her steadfast support for Wales over the last 70 years.

Motion moved.

Mark Drakeford AC: Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Well, 70 years ago, 1952 did not begin well in Wales. On 10 January, an Aer Lingus flight going from Dublin to London crashed in Snowdonia, killing its 22 passengers and all three crew. Less than a month later, King George VI was dead, and what the Prime Minister of the time, Winston Churchill, called 'a new Elizabethan age' had begun. In the intertwining of those two lives—a Prime Minister towards the end of his working life and a sovereign at the start of hers—we see a remarkable thread connecting our lives today, in the second decade of the twenty-first century, right back through the whole of the twentieth century to the final quarter of the nineteenth century. By the time Prime Minister Churchill became the first of 14 Prime Ministers who have now met weekly with the Queen, he could look back to escaping from a prisoner of war camp during the Boer war in the reign of Queen Victoria. He was a member of the great reforming Liberal Government of 1906 when King Edward VII was on the throne. He was Chancellor of the Exchequer for a whole parliamentary term when George V was the monarch. He was the leader of the King's party during the brief reign of King Edward VIII, and Prime Minister to George VI, and now a second Queen Elizabeth. In that year, in 1952, he presided over the abolition of identity cards introduced during the second world war, the introduction of prescription charges—5p for every item, the ending of tea rationing, and the first performance of Agatha Christie's The Mousetrap.
Now, it would have been a brave person who could look ahead with any certainty to the 70 years of continuity and change that were to follow, because the pace of change over those 70 years has quite certainly been enormous. Here in Wales, heavy industry has largely given way to financial and other services. The United Kingdom itself is very different to that of 1952. It's no longer a centralised unitary state; constitutional reforms have fostered a more plural society, where power is dispersed to other Parliaments in the four nations of the United Kingdom. Movement to and from the Commonwealth, the European Union and beyond has fashioned a more diverse and multicultural people.

Mark Drakeford AC: Having said that, Llywydd, some things have not changed. During 70 years of huge change, Her Majesty the Queen has been ever present in the lives of the people of Wales and beyond. We think of the way in which she has committed to carrying out her duty. She has been faithful to the pledge that she took at the time of her coronation. We also think of dignity and good nature that she always shows as she undertakes her duties.
Last year, it would have been difficult not to have been moved as she grieved following the death of her husband. She joined with many thousands of her citizens who respect the law and adhered to the restrictions that were required to keep others safe. The Queen has spent so much of her private life in the public eye, but that image in particular will remain for evermore.
Over the years, the Queen has often visited Wales, from her first visit as a young princess and the coronation tour of 1953, to opening the National Assembly and the Senedd during more recent years. Over those 70 years, the Queen has visited all parts of Wales. On occasion, it was a time for celebration, at others it was a time to join in periods of deep grief and remembrance, for example when she visited Aberfan.

Mark Drakeford AC: Now, next week, Llywydd, many throughout Wales will use the opportunity of the extended public holiday to celebrate the Platinum Jubilee—from a concert in Cardiff castle to a picnic in Llantrisant, a tea party in Burry Port to a regatta in Tremadog bay. Llywydd, it's part of the responsibility of being First Minister in this Senedd to become a member of the Queen's Privy Council and, as such, on 2 June, I will represent the Government and people here in Wales at the royal gun salute and the festival of music in Cardiff Bay, together with, I'm sure, thousands of other Welsh citizens. The following day, I will attend the service of thanksgiving for the Platinum Jubilee at St Paul's Cathedral. And, on 4 June, I will be at Buckingham Palace for the culmination of the weekend's celebrations.
But, far beyond those more formal events, there will, of course, be far more other opportunities to mark the Platinum Jubilee. There will be the lighting of beacons throughout Wales—in Newport, Bridgend, Brecon, Montgomery, Llanidloes and Rhyl—joining over 1,500 such beacons across the United Kingdom and far beyond the United Kingdom, across the Commonwealth. In a speech on the day of her coronation, the Queen, having pledged herself to the service of her people, vowed,
'Throughout all my life and with all my heart I shall strive to be worthy of your trust.'
And there is no doubt, Llywydd, that that trust has been earned over the 70 years that have followed. The celebration and events of the coming weeks will be an indication of the deep respect in which the Queen is held, and an expression of the gratitude for her many years of selfless service. It's on that basis that I invite all Members of the Senedd to support the proposition in front of us this afternoon, that we congratulate the Queen on the occasion of her Platinum Jubilee and pay tribute to her steadfast support for Wales over the last 70 years. Diolch yn fawr.

Andrew RT Davies AC: As someone who, back in 1977, joined the fancy-dress parade in our local village to celebrate the Silver Jubilee—I won't tell you what I was dressed up as—[Interruption.]—little did I think that, in 2022, I'd be standing with a suit and tie on reflecting on a reign of 70 years that has endeared Her Majesty the Queen to every sector of society, I would suggest. I appreciate in a democracy there are republicans and there are monarchists, but no-one can really say that the Queen hasn't earned the respect of this country for the public duty and public service that she has done throughout her entire reign. And it is a fact, as the First Minister touched on, that she has had 14 Prime Ministers serve herself, there have been 13 American Presidents—only one President has not met her; that's Lyndon Johnson—and 10 French Presidents have met Her Majesty the Queen. She has undertaken 152 state visits. There have been five Popes in her time, and in the time that I've been in this Senedd, she has come on four occasions to the official opening of the Senedd.
Many Members will recognise that I wasn't here in October when she came to open the Senedd for this current term of the Senedd's mandate, but watching on television, to see her face and the pleasure she was genuinely getting—and I think the Presiding Officer might endorse this—the genuine pleasure that she was getting by going around meeting not just Members, but the community groups that had assembled upstairs—that wasn't an act, that was genuine warmth and pleasure at being here in Wales and being here at the home of Welsh democracy, to open it for its term of office. And I think that's something we can be immensely proud of, that we have a monarch that recognises that the country does change and the monarchy changes with the country to be relevant.
It is fact that when the Queen was born in 1926, she was not the person who was the heir, she was not the natural choice to go through and become the monarch, but through the abdication of 1937, her whole life and her family's life were changed beyond belief. The war years saw her take active service with the Auxiliary Territorial Service, and ultimately then, after a short, brief time with her husband in Malta, the poor health of her father—King George VI, obviously—ended up with the premature death of His Majesty and the Queen becoming the monarch in 1952.
We look back at an era when that type of news would have to have been relayed by the telegraph, rather than a quick press of a button and the internet, or picking up your phone and getting news at the click of a switch. We also see the steam trains bombing around in the old black-and-white films and we now have electric trains. We also see the world at a time when it was a big thing to fly round the world. Today the world has opened up to every man, woman and child, if they so wish to go around it, and ultimately we are pushing the boundaries into space. And it is important to reflect that all this has happened in a reign of 70 years.
It is worth reflecting on the fact that the Queen has held Wales deeply in her heart, in particular the patronage that she has shown to the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society, to the Welsh Rugby Union, and numerous charities and organisations, of which she has helped raise their profile, and shown keen interest in those organisations. And as the First Minister touched on, the tragedy of Aberfan was just one tragedy amongst others that she has identified herself with and shown a keen interest in the way those communities have healed, never forgetting the hurt of those accidents and tragedies that has befallen the communities, wherever they may be in Wales.
It is also worth reflecting on her strong connection to the armed forces, as commander in chief, and, obviously, Wales has played its active part in sending more, proportionately, than its population into those armed forces, whether it be the army, the navy or the RAF, and the strong affiliation that many people feel with the royal family who have served in our armed forces, from whatever communities they might come from. And as one of the Members this afternoon touched on, and the Member for Clwyd West highlighted, one of the long-lasting traits of this Jubilee will be Wrexham becoming a city, and it's something that we can identify with as another celebratory note, with all the other cities that have been identified in various other Jubilees, such as the Golden Jubilee, the Silver Jubilee and obviously the Platinum Jubilee that we're celebrating in 2022.
It's also worth reflecting that faith is a major part of the Queen's make-up, and while she is the Supreme Governor of the Church of England, she does recognise that the country that was the 1950s United Kingdom is not the 2022 country, and we are a multifaith society, which is something that she and others celebrate greatly. And it's this make-up of the modern Britain that we celebrate every day.
For me, something that stands out very clearly in the recent COVID crisis was Her Majesty's address to the country in April 2020, when she did say, 'We will meet again.' Ultimately, at that moment, when there was real, real darkness, and people were looking over the precipice back in April 2020, she spoke genuinely and movingly of her belief that this country would come through that crisis and we would see better times. Thankfully, we have come through the crisis and we are seeing better times, but we do not forget those who lost loved ones and the massive sacrifices that many, many have had to endure.
It is also a fact that the royal family themselves have had to endure many tragedies, and many, many intrusions into their lives. But we do believe passionately that the Queen and the experience that she has gained over the 70 years has held what's best about Wales and what's best about Britain in every decision she has made for this country, our united country, standing tall in the world.
I join the First Minister in endorsing the motion on the order paper this afternoon, and I know full well that the celebratory weekend that is coming up will be marked in many corners of this country, not just here in Wales, not just here in the United Kingdom, but across the Commonwealth of nations that she heads up and leads up with such pride and passion. And I, on behalf of my group and the party, have no hesitation in commending the motion that's before the Parliament today.

At the risk of starting a trend, I did win 'best dressed in carnival' in the Llanwnnen Jubilee carnival in 1977—and there are photos.

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Adam Price AC: Diolch. [Interruption.] Yes, follow that, yes. Among her predecessors, Elizabeth II cannot claim to have spent the longest duration of time in Wales—the two Henrys and single Edward, actually born here, can battle it out for that particular crown—but she is, without a doubt, the British monarch who will have visited Wales most often, and the First Minister has referred to some of those occasions. Even at the start, our nation loomed large in the life of this unintended Queen. During the war, historians inform us, plans were drawn up to quell Welsh nationalism by affiliating Elizabeth more closely with Wales. Appointing her constable of Caernarfon castle was rejected as geographically impractical, making her a patron of the Urdd was considered too radical an option, so she had to settle instead for being inducted into the Gorsedd, aged 20, by the then archdruid, Crwys.
Elizabeth's first official visit to Wales was on 28 March 1944. This happened to be the day on which MPs in Westminster voted to pay women teachers the same as men, an important milestone in the movement towards equality that has been one of the many strands woven into the tapestry of Elizabeth II's long life and reign. Monarch-to-be she may have been, but that very equality was denied her at the outset; in the days preceding a visit to Wales, Welsh local authorities, in what used to be known as the Welsh Parliamentary Party, petitioned for her to be declared Princess of Wales. She was refused that right, because at that time a woman could only be heir presumptive, not heir apparent.
In response to being given the freedom of the city of Cardiff, plain Princess Elizabeth declared she had a very personal connection with Wales nonetheless. She may well have had in mind Y Bwthyn Bach—this was the fully functional model house that was presented to her by the people of Wales in 1932, on her sixth birthday. Located in Windsor Great Park, it included a kitchen with a stove and a fridge, a living room known as Y Siambr Fach, with electric lighting and a working telephone, two bedrooms and a bathroom that came with hot and cold running water and even a heated towel rail. In the circumstances of the time back home in Wales, this scaled-down cottage would have seemed every bit as palatial as Windsor itself.
Years later, as newly crowned Queen Elizabeth, she repaid our collective generosity by formally opening the national library in Aberystwyth, where 44 years earlier, her grandfather, King George V, had laid the foundation stone; nation building in Wales has always been a slow and painstaking affair. She described the library as having preserved
'the distinct character of a small but individual member of my family of nations',
a family that under her stewardship was rapidly transforming itself from an empire to a Commonwealth of independent nations—a status we hope, in our party, Wales will also one day enjoy.
Perhaps the most significant and long-lasting connection between Wales and the Queen grew out of her empathy, as has already been referenced, following the Aberfan disaster. It was a rare occasion when she was reported as shedding a tear in public. One mother told a television reporter:
'I remember the Queen walking through the mud. It felt like she was with us from the beginning.'
Queen Elizabeth never forgot Aberfan. She visited in 1973 to open the new community centre, and again in 1997 to mark the thirtieth anniversary of the tragedy.
Llywydd, we in the Senedd have a special reason to acknowledge the role of the Queen in the life of Wales. Her inaugural opening of our Parliament following the first elections in 1999 served to underline, through her presence, the significance of that new beginning in our national democratic journey—against the wishes, it seems, of the then Prime Minister. Now, on the threshold of emerging as a fully self-governing nation, Wales has changed beyond recognition when compared with our circumstances in 1952—a country without a capital, let alone a Parliament. Inscribed within this Jubilee, therefore, is also our own journey from Siambr fach to Siambr fwy, for our history is also, in part at least, her story too.

Natasha Asghar AS: There is no denying that Her Majesty the Queen is a remarkable woman who has served this country and the Commonwealth with great loyalty and dedication. It is a great privilege to be standing here today in this Chamber, amongst you all, paying tribute to Her Majesty as the country comes together to celebrate her Platinum Jubilee.
Her Majesty the Queen has broken countless records since her accession to the throne 70 years ago and is now the third-longest reigning monarch in the world. During her 70-year reign, the Queen and the rest of the royal family have made countless visits to Wales, as we've heard already, strengthening their very strong connections to our country. Only last year, Her Majesty was in this very Chamber amongst us all for the Parliament's official opening, with crowds lining the streets outside, hoping to catch a glimpse of our great monarch. And can I just say, I was hugely honoured to meet Her Majesty when she came here, as I know many of my Welsh Conservative colleagues were as well?
Over the years, the Queen has opened her doors, not just to those of us from the UK but from across the Commonwealth, to groups, individuals and organisations to attend her annual garden party, and she's honoured countless people for their contributions within their professional fields and for their charity work as well. The Queen has personally carried out more than 325 overseas visits in 130 countries, met more than 100 heads of state, and become the first monarch in 100 hundred years to visit the Republic of Ireland. Quite simply, she has been an inspiration, a role model and a huge stalwart to millions of people here in Wales, the rest of the United Kingdom, and across the globe.
She hasn't put a foot wrong throughout her reign, and has been a constant figurehead for the UK during times of enormous change. I've said it here before in the Chamber, but one of the greatest achievements of the Queen's reign has been the transformation of the empire to the Commonwealth. Made up of 53 independent countries, with a combined population of 2.4 billion, we have all shared goals to promote democracy, development and, ultimately, peace. Despite some countries being expelled or leaving over the years, today the Commonwealth stands united as a force for promoting racial equality, democracy and human rights.
One of the things that I love the most about Her Majesty is her passion for animals and some of the fantastic work she has done for them. It is estimated that the Queen has owned over 30 corgis, in particular—and I'm sure many of my colleagues will be happy to hear—the Pembroke Welsh corgis, alongside countless horses and some more exotic animals, such as sloths and a colony of bats. Her Majesty is a patron of more than 30 animal charities, including the RSPCA, the Labrador Retriever Club and the Royal Pigeon Racing Association. It is clear that she's an animal lover through and through.
Times have been particularly hard for Her Majesty and her family with the recent tragic loss of her beloved husband, the Duke of Edinburgh. As we all come together to celebrate the Platinum Jubilee, whether it be at an event in your community or just marking the occasion with friends and family, we should take a moment to reflect on the Queen's long reign and all the good that she has done across the globe. Next week, I hope that everyone inside of this Chamber and outside of this Welsh Parliament will raise a glass to Her Majesty and in honour of Prince Philip, who was by the Queen's side for many years and is sadly no longer amongst us. There is no doubt that Her Majesty remains at the very heart of our nation, and may she continue to reign over us for many, many years to come. Thank you.

Ken Skates AC: To spoil the trend, I am yet to win a best-dressed competition, but I hope that might change next week at the Ruabon Platinum Jubilee celebrations. I'd like to begin, though, by saying just what a pleasure it is to contribute to this debate and to support the motion, and to thank every organisation in Clwyd South that is organising such a diverse range of celebratory events for the Platinum Jubilee. I think, whether you're a monarchist or a republication or, indeed, indifferent, this special moment in our time really does recognise something that we can all agree on: we're celebrating relentless hard work, tireless commitment, loyalty, dignity and respect for duty by the longest serving monarch in British history. And this is a time for us all to come together in recognising these incredible attributes and to pay our respects to Her Majesty the Queen. The Platinum Jubilee will offer us a rare chance for the nation to put aside divisions and to take time to value community, public service and loyalty to others.
Now, the Queen has never expressed extraordinary views; instead she has been extraordinary in putting the unity and the well-being of her people first in discharging such an incredibly difficult duty. And in a world where division has become increasingly apparent at the international and the national and regional level, the Queen has striven to ensure that the Commonwealth remains as relevant as ever. She's always placed unity of nations, international unity and unity of regions right at the heart of her work.
Now, some people might not choose to celebrate the reign of Queen Elizabeth II in this coming week, but I do hope that everybody will salute the unparalleled and very positive contribution that the Queen has made to our history. And as we approach 2023 and thereafter 2024, let's hope that the Queen goes on to become not just Britain's, but the entire world's longest serving monarch. Diolch.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) took the Chair.

Laura Anne Jones AC: It's an honour to be able to contribute to this debate today and pay tribute to our longest serving monarch, Her Majesty the Queen. Her Majesty the Queen's life and reign can be summed up by one word: duty. At the age of 19, Her Majesty enlisted during world war two to serve in the women's Auxiliary Territorial Service, and this was just the beginning of a life of commitment to our country and its people. Her lifelong commitment to the country was optimised in her famous speech in Cape Town, South Africa, where she said:
'I declare before you all that my whole life, whether it be long or short, shall be devoted to your service'.
As our longest serving monarch in British history, she has remained a stable and calming influence over the country. She has reigned, as my leader said earlier, over 14 Prime Ministers in total in her time, which is an incredible achievement. She has modernised the monarchy and turned it into the much-loved institution that it is today, with a global reach that attracts many, many visitors to Britain each year.
Her Majesty the Queen is an icon for me and women around the world—the way she holds herself, her strength and her steadfast commitment to her role. Her sense of duty can be seen clearly through her dedication to her countless charities, being patron or president to over 600 charities in her time. It's not just her dedication to her country that we should all be in awe of; the Queen has remained a great champion of the Commonwealth, as has just been said, over the years, working to build relationships and keep its members together since 1952. When Her Majesty was crowned, the Commonwealth had eight member states; today, there are 54. The Queen has overseen a process in which practically the entire British empire has been transformed into a voluntary association of sovereign nations working together, hand in hand. Quite simply, the Queen has been steadfast as head of state and monarch. We will forever be in her debt. And I think I speak for the whole Chamber when I say: long may she reign; God save the Queen.

James Evans MS: I'm thrilled today that we are having this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to celebrate the life of service given to the people of Great Britain and the Commonwealth by an amazing person, someone who has put duty and service and dedication above all other things. That person is Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II.
For 70 years, the Queen has served us with distinction, and I and my constituents in Brecon and Radnorshire will be forever grateful for Her Majesty's service and Her Majesty's visits to my constituency, like the visit to Elan Valley in 1952 or the visit to Dolau in 2002 for Her Majesty's Golden Jubilee, and, more recently, Her Majesty visited Glan Usk near Crickhowell in 2012 for her Diamond Jubilee. It was a horrendous day, I can remember it well, and she just got on with the job of meeting people and making everybody feel special, and I think the Duke of Edinburgh at the time took the best option and sat in the car and greeted people from the window. I, along with many of my constituents, am very grateful for the time they came to Brecon and Radnorshire.
Throughout Her Majesty's long reign, the Queen has connected with the Welsh people during both times of joy and suffering. This has been seen in the messages given during the opening of the Welsh Parliament, and, more recently, during the coronavirus pandemic. Every year, the royal family conducts over 2,000 royal engagements, both in the UK and overseas. The Queen has personally conducted over 325 visits overseas in 130 countries, and, furthermore, the Queen has met heads of state of all types of political persuasions, and 14 Prime Ministers. As the late Duke of Edinburgh said, the Queen must have patience in abundance. It does show that she is the greatest ambassador that our country has ever had.
At the age of 18, she joined the auxiliary service and the Queen insisted that she joined, and the late King George VI ensured that she did not have any special treatment because of who she was; she just wanted to get on with the job of serving her country. Her Majesty's love of the outdoors has been a mark of her reign, and I did see this first-hand when Her Majesty and I spoke about farming at the opening of the Senedd, and I can confirm that she was very well informed about farming practices and she even taught me a thing or two that I didn't know.
Her role for our nation has been long and varied. After the sad passing of her long-term husband, His Royal Highness Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, the Queen has continued to serve the people of Wales and the world, showing that there are no signs of slowing down. We saw that yesterday, when Her Majesty attended the Royal Horticultural Society Chelsea Flower Show in a golf buggy nicknamed the 'Queenmobile'. So, she will live up to her statement that she will always need to be seen to be believed. Even at an age when many people would consider retiring and living a quiet life, the Queen continues to be at the forefront of our nation, serving as a royal emblem and acting as a uniting figure. I swore my oath to Her Majesty in joining this Parliament, and it gives me great pleasure to say: God save the Queen, and happy Platinum Jubilee, Your Majesty.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: As the elected Member for Aberconwy, this is, indeed, an honour and a privilege to take this opportunity to congratulate Her Majesty on the occasion of her Platinum Jubilee, and also to say thank you for the invaluable service that she continues to provide here in Wales.
We've had the honour of her presence in north Wales on numerous occasions. In fact, my home town of Llandudno welcomed her in 1963, 1977 and 2010. Such is the respect for Her Majesty and the royal family that our town has a park called Mountbatten Green and a care home called Queen Elizabeth Court. In fact, I know that we will be seeing celebrations across Llandudno and the rest of the constituency, because the local authority has already received eight road closure applications for Jubilee street parties. Of course, there will be many more planning tea parties in their gardens and watching the celebrations from the comfort of their sofa. But I would just ask as many as possible to take a moment to participate in the Big Jubilee Lunch. On Sunday, we will be encouraged to celebrate local connections and get to know our neighbours just that little bit better. Whether it's sharing a cup of tea on the doorstep or a bigger bash in the street, we can all do our part to help combat loneliness and isolation. None of us can ever forget that Her Majesty sat alone as she bid farewell to the late Duke of Edinburgh. 'Alone in her grief' wrote the Sunday People. 'Sitting alone, the Queen bids her final farewell', led The Sunday Telegraph, and 'The loneliest goodbye' reported the Sunday Mirror. Fifty-seven per cent of older people report feeling lonely sometimes. So, let's follow Her Majesty's example and think what we can do to support others far less fortunate than us.
On her twenty-first birthday, in a speech broadcast on the radio from Cape Town, Her Majesty dedicated her life to the service of the Commonwealth. She said,
'I declare before you all that my whole life, whether it be long or short, shall be devoted to your service.'
And she remains true to that promise. For example, for the benefit of our nation, Her Majesty is royal patron or president of 600 charities. For the benefit of our nation and international relations, Her Majesty has hosted 152 official state visits, including 13 Presidents of the United States of America and five Popes. And for the benefit of people globally, Her Majesty served as the head of the Commonwealth. We are fortunate to have a monarch who has pioneered innovation. The coronation was the first to be fully televised, despite being objected to by many officials. Her Majesty was the first monarch to produce a live televised Christmas message and the first British monarch to tweet. In fact, I think it's admirable that Her Majesty has made a concerted effort to remain modern and in touch with the challenges of our time. This is no surprise, given that she has already seen 14 Prime Ministers and four First Ministers of Wales. Even most recently, in response to the Ukrainian refugee crisis, the palace has advised that they are assisting in a number of ways.
We would certainly all be expecting somebody or anybody of 96 years of age to relax. However, this Platinum Jubilee, as Andrew Marr put it, 'marks 70 years of being the uncomplaining servant of her subjects.' So, I hope you will all join with me in expressing a hope that long may Her Majesty continue to serve our nation, our world, and to fill our hearts. Congratulations and God bless, Your Majesty.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to reply to the debate.

Mick Antoniw AC: Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm sure Members will appreciate how difficult it is to add to the tributes that have been paid to the Queen today. The theme that has run through all the speeches today is one that is familiar to us. It is one we hold high as politicians. It is that of public service. In a world of social media, of instant news, the one theme that resonates is that of public service, and, whatever one's views of the issue of monarchy, whatever one's politics, whatever one's beliefs, there is one view that I believe transcends all these differences, which is that, throughout her life, she has been an exemplar of the importance of public duty.
What is also undeniable is the depth of affection and respect in which she is held, both across this Chamber and by many of those we represent. And it is an affection and respect that has not been taken for granted. It would have been tempting, being born into a position of privilege, to have sought loyalty and deference by right, as perhaps her medieval predecessors might have done. But, through her actions, she has always strived to earn the trust of the people, demonstrated in the stories and the anecdotes that we have heard today.
In our constitutional monarchy, she quite rightly does not speak publicly on matters of politics. She does, however, sometimes seem to communicate her views in more subtle ways, most recently, in the display of flowers in the colours of the Ukrainian flag in the background when she met with the Canadian Prime Minister earlier this year. And I think few here will forget or disagree with those discreetly overheard comments at the recent opening of the Senedd, when discussing COP26 with our Presiding Officer, I recall, how she was irritated by people—I suspect she might have meant politicians—who talk but they don't do.
I thank Members for their contributions today. It is right that we took some time to reflect on the character and contribution of our longest lived and longest surviving monarch. As we look forward to celebrating with the Queen next week, I'm sure Members will join with me once again in expressing our nation's recognition of her devotion and service, and our congratulations on reaching such a momentous milestone. Diolch.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

4. Statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services: The Learning Disability Action Plan

Item 4 this afternoon is a statement by the Deputy Minister for Social Services on the learning disability action plan. And I call on the Deputy Minister, Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan AC: Diolch. I'm pleased to update Members on one of the vital areas of work that the Welsh Government is undertaking, to promote the rights and entitlements of some of the most vulnerable and often overlooked groups in our communities: people with learning disabilities, their families and carers.
Following on from our groundbreaking Improving Lives programme, which ended in March 2021, I want to draw Members' attention to the work we are now taking forward to build on the gains we have made. Whilst recognising the progress that we have made in meeting the needs and aspirations of people with a learning disability, we must also acknowledge that the pandemic has had a disproportionately damaging impact on their everyday lives. This has only highlighted the inequalities that still exist in society and the barriers to be overcome if people with a learning disability are to lead the lives they want to lead and to be recognised as valued members of society, being helped to live, work and develop as individuals, in their own communities, and close to the people who matter most to them.
I'm publishing our learning disability action plan, which demonstrates our continuing commitment to improve the services offered to people with a learning disability. I will also highlight the actions we will take to address the inequalities and disadvantages that many face every day of their lives. The action plan has, very importantly, been developed in collaboration and consultation with people with learning disabilities, the learning disability ministerial advisory group, and partners from across the public and third sectors. We also undertook a targeted six-week stakeholder engagement exercise.
The plan prioritises the key areas, actions and outcomes we want to achieve. It sets out the actions we will take to improve access to public services, including health, social care, education, employment, housing and transport. The priority areas include: reducing health inequalities and avoidable deaths; reducing the need for hospitalisation in specialist units through improved access to community-based services and crisis prevention; reducing long stays in hospitals, and in particular, reducing out of county and country placements; improving access to social care provision; supporting people to live as independently as possible through increased access to advocacy and self-advocacy skills and services, engagement and collaboration; ensuring access to education that meets the needs of individuals; providing enhanced employment opportunities and skills training; increasing appropriate housing that is close to home with integrated support services; improving the support for children, young people and their families through the development of a joined-up approach to children's services across health, social care and education, and in particular, improving how services support young people as they move towards adulthood.
In addition to the investment Welsh Government are making in areas such as employment, education and transport, I am pleased to announce that we are investing an additional £3 million over the next three years from our new social care reform fund to support delivery of the health and social care actions.
Preventative community solutions and the continued development of integrated housing, health and social care services are crucial elements to enable people with a learning disability to be supported and to live as independently as possible. The regional integration fund, launched in April, provides £144 million annually for five years to drive this much needed integrated support. We've ensured that individuals with a learning disability are one of the identified priority population groups for RIF funding.
A detailed delivery plan will be published in August and will contain the specific actions that will underpin successful delivery of these priority actions. It will be a living document and will be updated to reflect any changes to emerging priorities and circumstances. Both the strategic action plan and the delivery plan are flexible and contain actions that are realistic and achievable, given the ongoing focus on pandemic recovery, the continued unprecedented pressures on public services and limits on available resources at a national and local level.
The action plan will help deliver the Welsh Government's programme for government commitments to tackle the challenges that we face and improve the lives of people across Wales, reflecting our values of community, equality and social justice, and our stated well-being objective to celebrate diversity and eliminate inequality in all its forms. This will in turn contribute to the achievement of our national well-being goals for a prosperous, more equal Wales and cohesive communities. The plan has been developed through the application of the sustainable ways of working in the Well-Being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, in particular the priority areas that seek a preventative approach and better integration of services.
The plan also supports the ethos of the collaboration agreement between the Welsh Labour Government and Plaid Cymru, as many of the priorities identified reflect our shared goals of reducing the inequalities experienced by many of the people of Wales. In a commitment to ensuring genuine collaboration and co-production, we have worked closely with partners, including people with lived experience, to identify and agree priorities for action. I believe we have captured the most pressing needs in the plan and I would value your support for these priorities.
Our ministerial advisory group will be monitoring delivery of the plan and I will receive regular progress reports. There will also be a formal review at the end of year 2, to ensure the plan remains current and focused on the issues most important to people with learning disabilities. I will provide Members with a progress report at that time. Diolch.

Gareth Davies AS: Thank you very much for your statement this afternoon, Deputy Minister. And, whilst I welcome the statement and the publication of the learning disability strategic action plan, I'm afraid the plan is once again a set of aspirations and warm words, not a plan in any real sense of the word. What the document you published shows is that the Welsh Government has identified some of the challenges those living with learning disabilities face in their everyday lives, and while that is very welcome, what we need is detail on what the Welsh Government is going to do to improve outcomes for people with learning disabilities, and I accept that this is just part of the plan and look forward to scrutinising the delivery plan when it is published over the summer.However, this is the strategic plan, so where's the strategy?
Deputy Minister, how will progress against each of these priorities be monitored, and, more importantly, assessed? Without clear monitoring and targets, how will we know we are doing the right thing in the right way? Whilst the additional moneys outlined in your statement are welcome, how are they to be allocated? And how will you asses effective spending? For example, the £3 million from the social care reform fund will be used to support delivery of section 3 of the plan, which covers 15 specific actions. How far will the funding go in supporting a review of local authority day-service provision, developing tiers 2 and 3 of the Paul Ridd Foundation modules, as well as developing training and recruitment plans for learning disability nurses?
Deputy Minister, I share your ambition to improve the lives of people with a learning disability, and we must do everything in our power to break down barriers and eradicate inequalities, but we are not doing that, and this plan, as it stands, will not change things. It's been three years since the easy read resources for annual health checks were produced. These resources, developed under the previous plan, are still not widely available. We have to do better, and so much better at that. This is why we need proper monitoring of this plan and the outcomes it delivers.
Is the learning disability ministerial advisory group the correct vehicle to monitor the plan given that it is subject to the plan? The LDMAG is currently opaque and people with learning disabilities and groups that represent them do not find the group accessible. I welcome the intent to make the group more inclusive—it's needed. If you look at the group on the Welsh Government's website, you would think that the group last met in December 2019. I'm sure that's not the case, but how are people living with learning disabilities supposed to know? This group is supposed to advocate for them.
Deputy Minister, I hope you will use the time between now and the publication of the delivery plan to strengthen it, and I look forward to working with you to improve the outcomes for people with learning disabilities. Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much for that wholehearted endorsement of this plan. I think your response is as usual, but, in any case, I welcome the fact that you want to work with us on this.
I am sure that the Member heard me say that the detailed implementation plan will be introduced in August, so I think perhaps he had better wait to see that before he goes much further in his criticism of, in particular, the MAG, the learning disability ministerial advisory group, which I cannot praise too much. It is led jointly, with one of them being a women with learning disabilities, and it is very representative of different groups in the learning disability world and in society as a whole. They have pressed me strongly, have come up with a huge list of recommendations, are fighting for greater equality, and I'm really proud that we've got such a fantastic group and we want to make it even more inclusive. So, I think they won't take it very well that you have been very critical of them, especially as they have produced this plan jointly with other groups.
But, in any case, in terms of the £3 million, that, of course, is in addition to the other money that we put into learning disabilities. But, I have got a detailed breakdown of how that £3 million will be spent. I'm not sure we want to go actually penny by penny through it now today, but certainly one of the important things is to look at how we reduce avoidable deaths because, as you know, people with learning disabilities are much more prone to ill health. You mentioned the health checks issue. This was a very important part of the Improving Lives programme, that people with learning disabilities, who do sufferer disproportionately from certain illnesses, should have a yearly health check. Unfortunately, the pandemic arrived and it stopped that completely. In most cases, that was cancelled. We're now starting that again. Originally, £600,000 was put in to do it during the last financial year, we're putting another £350,000 in. Obviously, that will be carefully monitored because the health checks is one of the really important things that we want to do.
You mentioned the Paul Ridd Foundation, the education, and the first stage has been done. I'd like to really pay tribute to the Paul Ridd Foundation and to his family who have campaigned relentlessly so that there will be a better understanding of people with learning disabilities, so that they get the treatment that they need in hospitals. In that £3 million is the money in order to ensure that the second and third phases go on. So, I can account completely for that £3 million and how it's being spent.
The other point I'll pick up in what the Member mentioned is the day services. That's an issue that I am very concerned about, because I know many of the day services—virtually all of them—closed down during the pandemic and not all of them have opened up yet. So, I'm very keen that we look at this. We are reviewing this situation, but we want, when they do open up again, to be absolutely sure that they are what people with learning disabilities want and that they are included in the planning of those day services.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: This is a planthat highlights the key issues, the important issues, the challenges, of course, facing people with learning disabilities, their families and paid carers. I think it's fair to say it's hard to disagree with the aspirations, but where detail is lacking in elements of implementation, I think it's really important that we push Government for those details. One of the elements that are really important is real clarity on how progress is going to be monitored and evaluated. The Deputy Minister told us today that the ministerial advisory group will be monitoring delivery. I look forward to the progress report that the Deputy Minister is promising us before the end of the year, but I think we could do with more transparency about what it is exactly that we are measuring here so that we know what outcomes we are striving for.
On funding, we've had the announcement of the £3 million for delivery of health and social care actions. There are other elements of the plan for which there will be a need for substantial funding, and I think there are still gaps in what exactly those funding commitments are that we can expect from Welsh Government in order to fulfil the aspirations. Perhaps the Deputy Minister can give us more of an idea today of those elements of funding that, perhaps, Welsh Government is still trying to quantify, but at least give us an idea of the direction of travel that we might be headed in. And speaking of travel, transport only has one action in the plan, and accessing public transport as well as travel training is very important to people with a learning disability. Can I ask what plan is in place to improve the accessibility of transport for those with learning disabilities?
We have discussed on many occasions the importance of nurses within the healthcare workforce as a whole, of course. It's very concerning that this plan makes no reference to learning disability liaison nurses, who play such an important role. Is the Welsh Government reviewing that particular anomaly and what improvements are being made?
Perhaps a final general question relating to the pandemic. Of course, the pressure that the pandemic brought on services is well known. Many support structures were removed or reduced dramatically. Already challenging and complex caring situations were made worse, but we're talking now about returning to normal. Is Welsh Government also considering the likely longer term impacts of the pandemic, what they might be on people with learning disabilities, their families and carers and what steps might need to be taken and investment might need to be made to mitigate in the longer term?

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for those points. I think some of them are very well made. In terms of the detail, I think it's absolutely crucial that, in terms of implementation plan, which will have the detail, there will be the opportunity for Members to see that. It will be monitored by the MAG, which, as I say, is well represented with people with learning disabilities with lived experience. I think that's absolutely key. Obviously, they will be reporting to me as well, and at the end of the year, you will have that opportunity to see how the implementation is going. Obviously, progress will be evaluated. Some of the areas that we want to see improve will be easy to evaluate, for example the health checks that are so crucial. The pandemic came and cut those off, but we will certainly be able to see how those yearly health checks start and also whether they do achieve in identifying some of the illnesses that are linked with learning disability at an earlier stage in order to enable people to live healthier, happier lives, basically.
Some of the measurements are relatively easy to measure, others are more difficult, but, obviously, people with learning disabilities will be and should be taking advantage of all the other strategies for everybody in society. In this, we are doing particular targeted help towards people with learning disabilities, but if we have a truly integrated, equal society, they should be taking advantage of everything that we're doing as a Welsh Government. There are many other funding commitments other than the £3 million I mentioned; that was just the latest new bit that is identifying particular things to take forward.
In addition to that £3 million, there's obviously the £144 million regional investment fund where learning disability is a priority. So, we hope to see some projects from that. There's the core funding of £700,000 to health boards and to Improvement Cymru from the older people's, carers and disabled people's learning disability budget. So, there's that £700,000 as well. And then there is, of course, the money that I've already mentioned that has been given to progress the health checks—£600,000 in the last financial year and £350,000 in this financial year. So, there's a whole range of financial benefits that are coming forward, but I'd like to say, really, that we want to be sure that people with learning disabilities are taking advantage of all the things that we fund in the Welsh Government.
Certainly, nurses are a very important part of the way of progressing, and I think I already mentioned what the Paul Ridd fund was doing in a wider way in terms of educating people in the health system in order to ensure that people do get the best help they can.
I think the pandemic has had a huge effect on everybody, and, I do believe, a disproportionate effect on people with learning disabilities. So, we have to look particularly at loneliness and isolation, because I think there has been a disproportionate effect of people with learning disabilities feeling lonely and isolated and having a great problem with coping. It's been particularly difficult for their carers, because the carers have obviously had great difficulties as well. So, I think, in the way that we look at how the pandemic has had a longer effect on children and older people, we have to include people with learning disabilities in that.

Jenny Rathbone AC: I'd first like to draw everybody's attention to the St Teilo's Estyn report, which said that the needs of pupils with additional learning needs are met exceptionally well. Unlike in some schools, pupils who need bespoke support get bespoke support to thrive and achieve to the best of their ability. I saw that last week when I visited.
I'd also like to pay tribute to Bridgend College, which is exceptional in the support they give to young people to enable them to make the transition from school to the world of work. Some go on to excel in their chosen field, but sadly others of lesser ability seem to find other opportunities for growth and making a contribution to society shrink exponentially, and in a really frightening way in some cases. So, I'd like to understand better how we are going to enhance the employment opportunities for people who may have limited intellectual ability but certainly want to make a contribution. If we have IEPs for pupils, what about individual employment plans for people with learning difficulties?
Additionally, I wondered if you could say a little bit more about how you're developing appropriate housing close to home, with integrated support services, because it seems to me that's crucial for carers, particularly as carers get older and need to be cared for themselves.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Jenny Rathbone, for that contribution. It's great to hear about St Teilo's and about Bridgend College. I've had constituents from my own area who have attended Bridgend College, and, indeed, I think it's an excellent place. I think every family's worry and fear is what's going to happen after the colleges end, and one of the priorities listed here is to do something about better employment opportunities for young people with learning disabilities, and that's one of the areas that is planned to be followed up in the detailed implementation plan. It's certainly been flagged up by people with learning disabilities as one of the very important areas that must be covered. There have been efforts made to approach employers to employ people with learning disabilities, and I was very pleased yesterday when I visited a project and met a young man with Down's syndrome who was working in a garage one day a week. He was absolutely thrilled. The first thing he told me when I was introduced to him was, 'I work in a garage one day a week.' I think there's a great deal of scope for extending that sort of approach to employers and develop the scheme that already exists in terms of approaching employers. I think that's very important.
In terms of housing and care, the Minister for housing did make a statement recently here in the Chamber about the additional money that is going to set up housing and care systems, and we are hoping that the RIF will come forward with £144,000 there. We hope it'll come forward with some innovative schemes for people with learning disabilities. I know the Member has had parents in her constituency who are getting older and are worrying, as they are in my constituency, about what's going to happen to those young people. It is a huge worry, and I hope that, with this plan, we will be able to tackle those issues. Certainly, the will and commitment is there to do it, and it's very carefully monitored by people with that lived experience.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. The Welsh Government's plan to introduce a new action plan to improve the lives of people in Wales with a learning disability is welcome. People with learning disabilities often face additional life challenges. They're more likely to have additional health problems, such as autism, epilepsy and dental problems, just to mention a few. Not always, but they can be at a higher risk of leading an inactive lifestyle that can lead to further health complications. We did talk about COVID-19. Like almost every part of our country, COVID-19 has had a major impact on services for learning disabilities. These services support some of the most vulnerable people in our society and must be one of the priorities moving forward. This is compounded by the fact that they are more likely to be exposed to poverty, poor housing conditions and unemployment. In 2006, the Welsh Government introduced annual health checks for people with learning disabilities to increase early detection of developing ailments. But many GPs do not offer this service due to lack of evidence about the long-term health benefits. I think you need to look—

The Member now needs to ask his question, please.

Altaf Hussain AS: I wanted to ask about these things that should happen. I think I will leave it there.

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much for those questions. Certainly, individuals with learning disabilities are predisposed to respiratory and cardiac disease, diabetes, musculoskeletalproblems and gastro conditions, including some cancers, along with what the Member has highlighted. Individuals with Down's syndrome are likely to develop dementia at an early age—around 30 years old. So, these health checks are absolutely vital. That was part of the Improving Lives programme, which was our previous plan, which did include the health checks. But they all stopped when the pandemic started, in the same way for nearly every sort of check—they all stopped. So, there has been a big setback because of the pandemic. But we are reinvesting £350,000 this year now to start up those checks, which will be monitored. I think the Member makes a very important point about how vulnerable people with learning disabilities are to the impact of poor health, and these health checks are absolutely vital.

Finally, Hefin David.

Hefin David AC: I'd like to thank the Deputy Minister for all the direct work and involvement she's had with people who have learning disabilities, and also advocates on their behalf. I know she's held meetings across Wales with such people.
The question I've got is regarding the point she makes about joined-up services between education, health and social care, and particularly how the action plan is going to address what I called in the debate last week the pinball effect, when you bounce between health, social care and education. It can lead to you waiting longer than maybe—. You might have a short wait for a healthcare worker, but then that cumulative effect means you're waiting a long time for the end result. I'd like to ask how that will be considered in the action plan, whether there may be ways of alleviating and whether, perhaps, parallel processes to reduce those waiting times might be an effective measure. At this point in time, I'd only want the Minister's opinion on that.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Hefin David for that contribution and for all the work that he's done in this area and in other connected areas. With the parallel routes, it does cause problems and it does cause delays, so the action plan does want the development of improved and integrated children's and young person's learning disability services across early learning, schools, health and social care, and also including transition to adult services. We have set aside £175,000 of the £3 million I mentioned to undertake detailed mapping of services to identify gaps and needs. One of the issues as well is we really want to improve transition to adult services, because as well as the parallel paths, there is the big hurdle when you transfer to adult services. So, I thank him very much for that important point, and that is certainly one of the things we are considering in the action plan.

Thank you, Deputy Minister.

5. Statement by the Minister for Education and Welsh Language: Welsh in education workforce

Item 5 is next, a statement by the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language on the Welsh in education workforce. I call on the Minister, Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. Our ambition for a million Welsh speakers by 2050 demands changes and actions that are far-reaching. Our new curriculum puts the Welsh language at the heart of learning in Wales, but if we are to create a nation where people speak and use the language as part of their everyday lives, increasing the number of learners in Welsh-medium schools is vital. For us to do that, of course, we need a strong and skilled workforce.
I am very pleased, therefore, to be able to publish the Welsh in education workforce plan today, which outlines the steps we will take over the next 10 years, in partnership with a range of organisations and stakeholders. The plan outlines our actions against four key aims: to increase the number of teachers able to teach Welsh as a subject or through the medium of Welsh; to increase the number of practitioners able to work through the medium of Welsh who are supporting learners; to develop the Welsh language skills of our education workforce; and to ensure that our leaders are equipped with the knowledge and skills to strategically plan and develop the Welsh language within our schools.
We have already laid solid foundations with developments in recent years, which include: introducing the Iaith Athrawon Yfory incentive, which provides up to £5,000 to students training to teach secondary subjects through the medium of Welsh or Welsh as a subject; supporting Welsh-medium primary teachers to convert to teach in the secondary sector—to date, 24 teachers have been part of the pilot programme across Wales; and, finally, expanding the range of Welsh language sabbatical scheme courses. The next step of the journey is to refine and embed some of our key policies and ensure that all stakeholders work together to achieve our aims.
We have excellent teachers, leaders and support staff in our schools. However, it can be a challenge for Welsh-medium schools, in particular, to be able to recruit the staff they need. I am currently reviewing local authorities' Welsh in education strategic plans. These will allow us to better understand and plan workforce requirements to meet the projected growth in Welsh-medium education over the next 10years.
In the meantime, there is no time to waste. We've already started to progress some of the short and long-term actions to increase the number of teachers. I've invited schools to apply for grants to support the capacity building of some parts of the Welsh-medium and bilingual education workforce during the 2022-23 academic year. I hope that schools will be able to develop innovative ways of resolving some of the challenges in terms of workforce recruitment.
A campaign to encourage more of our young people to choose Welsh at A-level is also under way. This campaign is a key part of the pathway to ensure we have sufficient teachers of Welsh as a subject further down the line. I have also asked my officials to consider how incentives and bursaries could potentially attract more people to choose teaching in Welsh-medium settings as a career.
We also need to continue our efforts to develop the Welsh language skills of our education workforce, in order to improve the teaching of Welsh in our English-medium schools. I was pleased to be able to announce in February that the National Centre for Learning Welsh will provide courses free of charge for practitioners from September onwards. These courses, along with the sabbatical scheme courses and professional learning delivered by our regional consortia and local authorities, will provide a range of provision for our practitioners.
Ensuring that we have a sufficient number of leaders for our growing number of Welsh-medium schools is also a priority, as is ensuring that all of our leaders can support the realisation of our vision for all learners to be able to use the language when they leave the school.
Additional funding will be invested over the next three years to implement this plan. As outlined in the draft budget, a further £1 million is being allocated in 2022-23, with further indicative increases of £0.5 million in 2023-24 and £2 million in 2024-25. This new funding is in addition to existing funding, which includes £0.785 million for Iaith Athrawon Yfory,£6.35 million for the sabbatical scheme and regional or local support for professional learning in Welsh, £0.7 million for the conversion programme, and £0.145 million to support activities to increase the number of learners studying Welsh as a subject. And this brings the total funding to nearly £9 million in 2022-23, which is a significant investment.
We have discussed extensively with key partners and stakeholders to fully understand the issues, and to develop the solutions that we need. I would like to thank, Dirprwy Lywydd, everyone who has contributed to the development of this plan, and especially to the task and finish group that has worked with us to suggest, develop and refine the actions.
There is a lot of work to do. We want to continue to attract and support the best teachers, assistants and leaders for our schools. I have been struck by the enormous amount of dedication, enthusiasm and commitment amongst our partners, and I'm confident that together we will be able to deliver on the actions set out in the plan for our future generations.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Thank you to the Minister for having previous sight of the statement. As the Minister's recognised this afternoon, the Cymraeg 2050 strategy is ambitious and aspirational, but to safeguard the future of our language, we must ensure that our policies are innovative and that our leadership is accountable.
In the year that I've been a Member, I've come to realise how important it is to remove barriers and ensure that our language is one that everyone can share and learn, which is partly why I welcome this afternoon's statement. But if we're serious about the development of our language, we must ensure that the efforts made are adequate in increasing Welsh speakers in Wales, not to maintain current levels alone. And that's my greatest concern with this policy—that it won't deliver its intended aims.
The purpose of today's statement, as the Minister said, is to develop Welsh-medium learning through all levels of supported education, in line with pledges made five years ago. Indeed, in the plan made five years ago by the then Minister, the Member for Blaenau Gwent, the Welsh Government pledged to increase the number of primary school teachers able to teach through the medium of Welsh by 7 per cent. This would have seen the number of teachers increasing from 2,903 to 3,100. But, five years after the introduction of Cymraeg 2050, we've gone backwards.
In line with the last academic year, 2,871 primary teachers were able to teach through the medium of Welsh—a deficit of 7.4 per cent in staffing levels. But this isn't the only trend that we're seeing; the level of secondary school teachers has gone through the floor. In the academic year of 2020-21, 2,395 teachers taught through the medium of Welsh. The target for this period was 2,800—14 per cent lower than the original target. Of course, an ambitious target such as this one will bring its own challenges—challenges first set out five years ago. When this strategy was first launched, your Government was warned that our Welsh-medium education sector was facing a difficult recruitment crisis, a situation that was exacerbated by your plans in Cymraeg 2050. And here we are, five years later, with a plan to address this situation. Has the Government taken its eye off the ball here?
Five years ago, the culture committee of the Senedd warned that we would need 70 per cent more Welsh-medium teachers to reach the target of a million Welsh speakers. The former Minister, Alun Davies, dismissed this. Does the Minister agree with that, or does he regret that his Government has failed to step in sooner in order to tackle these shortcomings? If we are serious about safeguarding our wonderful language, then the Welsh Government must be proactive in safeguarding it. We cannot continue to tackle five-year-old problems five years after they are first identified. This approach to governance is not sustainable, and although I agree with much of what's contained within today's statement, I am concerned that the statement could be too late.
It's clear that the past five years has seen delay, and if we don't take action now, then there is a risk that a million Welsh speakers will slip from our grasp, and with that there is a risk that we will put the future of our language at risk in the future.
In looking to the future, we must ensure that we listen to our education sector. I have always said that nobody has a monopoly on good ideas, and here we are again, welcoming resolving the problems of 2017. But you have listened to our education staff, Minister—thank you—so here we are, only five years late.
I commend the Welsh Government for bringing this statement forward, but don't delay before taking action on these changes. Let us ensure that the next generation of Welsh speakers receive that fundamental support that they need to prosper. Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer.

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Samuel Kurtz for that question. As he said in his contribution, nobody has a monopoly on good ideas. This document is the fruit of the Government's work, working with our stakeholders and our partners across a range of sectors, but if you have further suggestions that are constructive, then we would be very content to consider them. As you say, everybody has a contribution to make to ensure that the Welsh language flourishes and prospers and to ensure the numbers that we want to see speaking the language. So, we have a range of steps here that extend from the ways of inspiring people and attracting people to teach the Welsh language as a career choice, steps to make the qualification process smoother to teach in Welsh, and also a range of measures to try to encourage people to remain in the profession, to sustain and retain people in the profession, which is also so important.
In terms of accountability and progress against the strategic aims in the plan, the Member will see that there is a series of tables in the document that describes, for each local authority, the demands on them to ensure an increase in their workforce that is able to teach through the medium of Welsh. That aligns with what has happened this year for the first time, namely the WESPsthat extend over a period of 10 years rather than three years, so this plan aligns with the 10-year strategic plans, but the intention certainly is not that these steps should be taken over that 10 years in a leisurely manner; the Member will see that there are specific dates outlined according to the steps that we've set out, and the intention is to look at the tables and data published every two years and to publish an update, so that progress against the plan is clear and that we are accountable to the Senedd for that.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you to the Minister for the statement and this investment, and we very much welcome that there is recognition that a 10-year plan is needed to develop the Welsh in education workforce. But I'd like to echo a number of the concerns expressed by Samuel Kurtz as well, because, as he said, the data that goes along with the plan shows that the situation as it currently stands is extremely worrying, with the targets set for 2021 missed in terms of primary and secondary schools. So, if we are truly to reach the 'Cymraeg 2050' target, more must be done as a matter of urgency. Otherwise what hope do we have of reaching the 2031 targets?
I would therefore like to ask, first of all: why did the Government fail to reach the 2021 targets, and what lessons were learned from this failure that have influenced this 10-year plan? I think that we need to learn those lessons if we are to understand how that progress can be realised.
The concern that I and various other people, such as Cymdeithas yr Iaith, have is that the plan isn’t sufficiently ambitious or far-reaching to deliver the change needed, with the language used being rather weak in terms of the expectations placed on providers and, while the plan recognises that there is a challenge in the secondary sector, it worries me that this gives the impression that there isn’t really a problem in the primary sector, and all this despite the fact that Government data show that 273 primary teachers need to be trained every year, and around 300 secondary teachers. With only 250 training to be primary and secondary teachers at the moment, how are we to ensure that we more than double the number that we need?
And you mentioned in your response to Samuel Kurtz that you will monitor how effective this scheme is every two years. But, if the necessary progress isn't made, do you commit to adapt the plan to be more radical and far-reaching if the numbers don't increase? It will be too late to remedy the situation if we continue to miss these targets.
And what are the implications in terms of local authorities that don't reach their targets? We often see, with the plans over the past few years, target after target being missed. How will you ensure that that doesn't happen, so that every local authority in Wales hits its targets as it should, and that we understand why they don't do that if they don't hit the targets, and then we can intervene as necessary?
The final point that I would like to make relates to the issue raised by UCAC today in response to the plan’s publication, namely the question of whether the profession continues to be attractive. As I mentioned to you last week, we know that there are problems with the retention of teachers and that they are under huge pressures in terms of mental health pressures, bureaucracy, financial pressures and the major changes to the education system that are in the pipeline, for example with additional learning needs reform and the new curriculum, and this is having an impact on the number of teachers being recruited and the number of teachers retained in the workforce. We also know that not all local authorities are equal in terms of how they invest in Welsh-medium education, and that some don’t understand—or don’t want to understand—their role in generating demand, rather than just providing according to demand. We know of teachers who are able to speak Welsh who have left their roles in Welsh-medium schools to teach in new English-medium schools because the facilities for students and staff are better, rather than trying to teach in an unsuitable building that is collapsing around them.
So, what research has been commissioned by the Government to understand why educators who are able to speak Welsh are leaving the profession or are opting not to teach through the medium of Welsh? Isn’t understanding this vitally important if we are to ensure equal access for every pupil in Wales to Welsh-medium education?
As you said in your statement, there is no time to waste and there is a great deal to do. I'm very pleased that you feel confident that we will be able to take these steps, but the challenge is whether these steps will also lead us to the successful achievement of the targets. That will be the measure of success.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, you're exactly right in that. And as I did with Samuel Kurtz, I would invite the Member, if she has any particular steps to suggest that aren't contained within the plan, I'd be more than happy to listen to them.
There are two main points in the Member's questions. First of all is the role of local authorities in ensuring that progress in made in terms of their responsibilities to provide for Welsh-medium education, and the second is an analysis of what's happened in the past that has meant that we've not reached our targets. And I think both of those are complex issues.
In terms of the first, the intention underpinning the publication of the data and this plan, as well as the strategic plans, is that we have joint ownership with the broader sector and local authorities for not just meeting the current demand, but also generating demand for Welsh-medium education, and being proactive in ensuring that the staff are available to meet that demand that will, hopefully, have been generated. So, that element is a new element; it's an important one, I think.
The WESPs are, generally speaking, ambitious. I'm currently looking at some elements of those at the moment. But every local authority has taken up the challenge that we've set for them in terms of increasing the numbers receiving education through the medium of Welsh in their area, so that is a step forward. And that of course means a pattern of investment in school buildings and estates that allows that to happen—that is, that there is balance across the portfolio so that Welsh-medium education gets the same attention as English-medium education in order to ensure that the challenge set out by the Member is met. She's right: we shouldn't see a situation where there is a lack of balance in investment in the way that she suggests can exist from time to time.
In terms of challenges to date, I think there is more to be learnt in terms of encouraging people to look at a career in teaching through the medium of Welsh at an earlier stage. There is more work that can be done and that is in the plan in order to ensure that access to A-level Welsh is easier. Some aspects around the funding of that are possible; there are aspects around providing that when the numbers aren't particularly large in a particular school in terms of the work we can do with e-sgol and so on. There a few other things that are more creative, perhaps, because the challenge is more apparent. So, one of the things you will have seen in the plan is the intention to work with the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol to create links with students who have perhaps left Wales who are Welsh speaking and are considering a career in education and encouraging them to return here to teach through the medium of Welsh—so, things that I would suggest are bold and creative.
There have been challenges in terms of the route to qualification. There are proposals in the plan in terms of expanding part-time provision in terms of teacher training and training whilst in employment, and looking again at the GCSE qualifications required in order to qualify here in Wales and bringing them into line with every other part of the UK. So, if you go to any school, you will often hear headteachers saying, 'Well, why does someone need a B in maths to teach Welsh or French?' So, that discussion is ongoing and a review of that would be timely too.
And the final point is—and it's the point made by UCAC that I think you referred to, and I do thank them and others for their contributions to this plan—that the pressures on the sector are broader than just the Welsh-medium education sector, but there might be an additional challenge in that sector. We're looking at a number of things here. One is the role of bursaries in supporting people in teaching through the medium of Welsh. What are the opportunities to attract people back to teaching who have left the profession? We are looking at creative ways of doing that. I've also asked the body advising us on teachers' pay and conditions to look at the specific challenge to Welsh-medium education in some parts of Wales to see if there is a case to reflect that in the kind of advice that they provide us in terms of terms and conditions more generally. So, we would ask them to provide that advice to us.

Vikki Howells AC: Thank you for your statement, Minister. It's really encouraging to see you focusing on recruiting Welsh-speaking teachers and progressing the Welsh language skills of the current teaching workforce.
If we're to achieve our ambitious goal of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050, then investing in our teaching workforce is absolutely vital. Minister, you recently announced a scheme to boost the recruitment of Welsh-speaking childcare professionals for our growing network of meithrins. Can I ask whether you've considered a similar scheme in order to attract Welsh speakers into the key role of teaching assistants for our Welsh-medium schools?
Secondly, turning to the issue of ALN provision, Rhondda Cynon Tafcouncil recently announced the opening of its first Welsh-medium discrete additional learning needs class. This is a really important step to ensure equality of access to Welsh-medium education, but I understand that recruiting Welsh-speaking ALN specialist teachers can be a challenge. What work is Welsh Government doing to ensure that more Welsh-speaking teachers are trained in ALN delivery, or that more ALN teachers are encouraged to undertake Welsh language training to become proficient in teaching through the medium of Welsh?
And finally, turning to the issue of transition from Welsh language childcare to an education setting, in my constituency of Cynon Valley, I've seen first-hand how the work of a thriving meithrin sharing key information with the local Welsh language primary school and holding really well organised transition events has led to a steady increase in parents deciding to take that next step and enrol their children into Welsh-medium primary provision. What work is the Welsh Government doing to ensure that this best practice is upscaled and that staff from meithrins and Welsh language primary schools are encouraged to work closely together so that more parents decide upon Welsh-medium education for their children?

Jeremy Miles AC: I thank Vikki Howells for those questions. I think that the relationship between Mudiad settings and early years in particular around the deployment and recruitment of teaching assistants who are able to provide their services and the important work that they do through the medium of Welsh is a really exciting possibility, actually. So, it's quite a complex area and it's one where there's private sector provision, there's obviously local authority provision and there's Mudiad Meithrin provision, all employing staff. And what I'm hoping that we can achieve through the plan is for us to look at whether there are opportunities for there to be recruitment together, on a kind of joint contract basis, between different settings and schools so that it can be more attractive, perhaps, for people to come into the support professions by looking at that as a kind of joint enterprise, if you like. It's quite complex, but we have been talking to our partners about how we could explore the possibility of doing that. And I think that that will support the point that she was making in her question about transition from nursery settings into early years and then through to primary in that seamless way.
It's an important part of this plan, as she was indicating in her question, to also be looking at the recruitment of teaching assistants. I think it's important to look at the landscape of recruitment as a whole, because one part impacts on the other. And I was with Huw Irranca-Davies in a school in his constituency this morning talking to the head about exactly this, about how important it is to focus on Welsh language recruitment across the entire school workforce, if you like.
And there are some, I think—I hope—creative suggestions in the plan that we will take forward. One is around providing work experience for learners to undertake work experience in schools as teaching assistants, the other is an idea that we're piloting at the moment around funding a gap year for those leaving sixth form before they go on to whatever stage they might consider next to provide them with the opportunity of a funded gap year, if you like, between other stages in their careers to encourage them, perhaps, to consider teaching, being a teaching assistant through the medium of Welsh, and I think a significant increase in the professional learning available to teaching assistants through the medium of Welsh so that they can make sure that their language skills are what they wish them to be. So, I think that there is a range of ways in which we are trying to think imaginatively about recruiting this important part of the school workforce.

And finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Minister, I hope that you enjoyed the visit to Llanhari school today and I very much hope that you enjoyed the singing as much as the children and the teachers enjoyed your dancing in the playground. [Laughter.] Indeed, during today's visit, you met two young teachers who were starting their careers in the field of education. So, what message do you have for them, and for other young people across Wales, who perhaps haven't considered pursuing a career in the world of Welsh-medium education yet, following your excellent announcements today? And also, what is your opinion of the way that Ysgol Llanhari has welcomed and has embraced the new curriculum? Thank you.

Jeremy Miles AC: Well, I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for the question and for providing a spoiler for the S4C news coverage this evening. [Laughter.] I'm sure the viewing figures will go through the roof as a result of that spoiler.
Well, it was a special experience to be at Ysgol Llanhari this morning. I'd like to thank them for their welcome and for the invitation to be there with you, Huw. I had an opportunity, as you said, to have a conversation with some recently qualified teachers and who were enjoying their early careers at Ysgol Llanhari. I asked them what had encouraged them to choose a career in education, and just to hear their enthusiasm and what impact they can have on the lives of young people in ensuring that they get the best possible education. And doing that through the medium of Welsh, which is so exciting in terms of adding to the understanding of our young peoples, who are often from backgrounds where Welsh isn't spoken at home—that's the case more often than not, in fact—but also actually opening their eyes to Welsh-medium culture too, and hearing them talk about that was inspirational for me. So, if I were having a conversation with anyone else in Wales, I would echo what I heard from them this morning. It is an important choice, one of the most important choices that one can make to choose a career in education and in a school.
It was an excellent opportunity to see how much work they had done as an innovative school, leading the way on many of the important approaches to the new curriculum. And I know that he enjoyed as much as I did, the opportunity to sing, and he was dancing too. So, if anyone does watch the news on S4C this evening, they'll have an opportunity to see Huw Irranca-Davies dancing too. [Laughter.]

I thank the Minister.

6. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: Justice in Wales

Item 6 this afternoon is the statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution on justice in Wales, and I call on the Counsel General to make his statement. Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. A fair and effective justice system and the rule of law are the cornerstones of our parliamentary democracy. As politicians, we make laws, but the adjudication of those laws must always be independent of politics. Today, I want to make a statement about how best we think we can best achieve that fair, effective, independent justice system, and social justice is at the heart of that. Although much of the work of operating the justice system is reserved, devolved agencies have crucial parts to play in its delivery. It is a public service like any other, but it's one that has to work hand in hand with education, health, social services, housing and others. Fair and effective delivery is dependent on the quality and consistency of the collaboration and long-term planning of all of these services.
As chair of the Cabinet sub-committee on justice, I see how much work goes into trying to achieve this. We owe a debt of gratitude to our police and those who work in our courts, our prisons and our probation services, as well as in our legal profession, the judiciary, the justice trade unions and many more besides.

Mick Antoniw AC: I also want to reflect the personal efforts of the Minister for Social Justice, who sits with me on the Cabinet sub-committee, and has done so much to deliver strong and vital partnership working over the years. We were particularly pleased by the exceptional partnership working over COVID-19, where collaborative working was a vital component in keeping the courts operational and COVIDsecure.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

Mick Antoniw AC: But despite all this, we know that our justice system could be so much better. Nobody here will have forgotten the words of Lord Thomas that the people of Wales are being let down by the justice system in its present state. The Thomas commission was, of course, an unprecedented examination of justice in Wales. While there is much we have done in response, there is much more to do.
Today we have published a document called 'Delivering Justice for Wales'. This publication is about both the present, the near future and the longer term. The purpose of the publication is to draw a line under the constitutional turf wars of the past and to stop asking the question, 'Who should run the justice system?' Instead, we ask what we need to do to deliver better justice in Wales.
So, I don't want to rehearse past failings, but we need to recognise the scale of the challenges we face: an epidemic of violence against women; a shortfall of legal aid services when they are desperately needed, and many people, often the most vulnerable, denied access to the justice they deserve; minority ethnic communities whose relationship with the police is often fragile; and parts of our legal profession struggling to survive and the emergence of legal advice deserts in some of the poorest parts of Wales. The challenge for us is: what do we do about it?
Today’s publication highlights some of the good collaborative work that is happening now. Even within the current restrictive arrangements, there are areas where we have managed to embed our person-centred approach to justice. Partner organisations have risen to the challenge where they can, such as the work on the youth justice and women's justice blueprints. I'm sure Members will welcome the announcement of a site for the pilot residential women's centre—the first time we'll be able to accommodate women given custodial sentences in Wales. The newly established Law Council of Wales should be another example of strong partnership working, to identify shared priorities for the legal sector as a whole, and to act collectively to address them.
The publication also sets out things we plan to do with our existing powers, such as legislating to build a structurally independent single-tier tribunal service. This will be a major milestone in Welsh justice, including our first ever appellate tier and an increased role for the president of Welsh Tribunals.
We want the publication to spark a conversation and engagement with people who have expertise in any aspect of justice, be they politicians, academics, practitioners, non-governmental organisations or people with personal experience of contact with the justice system. I should say that we did reach agreement with the UK Government to discuss those many Thomas commission recommendations that are currently reserved, but those conversations were slow to start, and they have, once again, stalled. The departures of first Robert Buckland as Lord Chancellor and then Lord Wolfson seem to have removed all impetus. And so, regrettably, we come to the conclusion once again that to achieve the scale of reform necessary, structural change is needed.
Perhaps most importantly, today’s publication shows how improving the traditional justice system cannot meaningfully be achieved without providing social justice. That means tackling society’s greatest challenges, including poverty and intergenerational inequality. It means tackling hate, racism, misogyny and discrimination. It requires early intervention and responding quickly, comprehensively and compassionately to childhood trauma and adverse experiences. Only through joining up policy on justice with the rest of Welsh policy making can we truly find effective ways of reducing crime, or indeed reducing the numbers of family breakdowns, or all the other causes of the immense pressures on our justice system. This is a fundamentally different model to improving the justice system and it needs to be joined up. The current sentencing policy, run from Whitehall, based heavily on punishment, deterrents and locking people up, is counter-productive and failing. So, we believe that the devolution of justice is not only necessary, but is inevitable and we have a duty to prepare for it. That is the second part of the conversation we want to spark today.
We know that the justice system, integrated with all the other vital public services, could deliver better outcomes for Wales. We know the principles that would guide us, and we set out in the publication some of the core components of that future service, but we don't have all the answers. Our plans for the future must be co-produced with all those elements of public services and the justice system. So, this is the start of a new conversation for change, reform and improvement that we want to kick off with today's publication. I hope that all Members will take an interest in this publication, and I hope we can all approach it in the spirit that is intended. We believe that the devolution of justice is not an end in itself, but it's a necessary reform. It is not a conversation about powers; it is a conversation about what will produce the best outcomes for Wales. We have the responsibility to deliver it as best we can for our communities and for the people of Wales. Diolch, Llywydd.

Mark Isherwood AC: Commenting on its 'Delivering Justice for Wales' report yesterday, the Welsh Government described
'a distinct Welsh justice policy based on prevention through tackling social challenges and rehabilitation'
and contrasted this with 'a more punitive approach' by the UK Government—a theme continued in the statement we've just heard, but didn't receive in advance. Why have you claimed this when the UK Government has stated repeatedly that it favours a policy based on prevention through tackling social challenges and rehabilitation? How do you respond to the UK Ministry of Justice's new 'Prisons Strategy White Paper' to rehabilitate offenders and cut crime, published in December? How has the Welsh Government engaged with the UK Ministry of Justice's victim strategy to align support for victims with the changing nature of crime?
The UK Government published a female offender strategy to divert vulnerable female offenders away from short prison sentences wherever possible, invest in community services and establish five pilot residential women's centres, including one in Wales. Last week, as you've indicated, the Minister for Social Justice here wrote to Members stating that she has been working closely with the UK Ministry of Justice, and announcing that one of these centres would be near Swansea in south Wales, presumably because of her input. How will this help vulnerable women offenders in north, mid and west Wales to access the services they need closer to home?
Last week, the UK Ministry of Justice announced its turnaround scheme, with £300 million over the next three years to support every council across Wales and England in catching and preventing youth offending earlier than ever, helping to stop these children and teenagers from moving on to further, more serious offending. How will the Welsh Government engage positively with this?
Of course the UK Government recognises that devolution has altered the legislative and policy context to policing and criminal justice in Wales, and has established a form of administrative devolution through Welsh offices, units or directorates based upon co-operation, on joint working, including HM Prison and Probation Service in Wales, Youth Justice Board Cymru and HM Courts and Tribunals Service Wales. So, how do you engage positively with these in pursuit of common agendas? It's clear from your statement that your colleague, certainly the social justice Minister, and, I presume, yourself are doing so.
Commenting yesterday, the Welsh Government stated that by joining up the justice system with the rest of Welsh policy making, we can find truly effective ways of reducing crime. However, what confidence can we have that alignment of policies and decisions about justice with this Welsh Government's devolved policy agenda will improve matters, when Wales has the highest proportion of children in the UK in care, and one of the highest proportions of children looked after by any state in the world? Public order crime in Wales is 132 per cent of the England and Wales figure—the highest rate out of eight regions; violent crime in Wales 106 per cent of the England and Wales figure, also the highest rate out of eight regions; Office for National Statistics figures to last June showed that north Wales had one of the highest rates of violence against the person and sexual offences per 1,000 people in the UK; a poll of 2,000 adults across 15 major UK cities found last September that Cardiff is the UK's most dangerous city where locals feel least safe; and the Wales Governance Centre reported in 2019 that Wales has the highest rate of imprisonment in western Europe, and although the total number of prison sentences rose in Wales between 2010 and 2017, they fell by 16 per cent in England. The report's author stated that wider research is needed to try to explain Wales's high rate of imprisonment. Is it therefore not the case that such a difference in delivery within what is a shared criminal justice system shows why the calls for devolution of criminal justice should not be answered?
Commenting yesterday, the Welsh Government stated that devolution must happen so all this money can be reinvested in meeting Wales's urgent needs. In reality, creating separate jurisdictions for Wales and for England would be unjustifiably costly and lead to significant duplication of functions. Why have you therefore conveniently ignored the Silk commission estimate that the devolution of policing and justice would cost a whopping £100 million a year? Instead, how do you respond to the statement at last October's Legal Wales conference by Lord Wolfson—and you did refer to him in your statement—then a UK justice Minister, and, as you indicated, no longer in that position? He said:
'we are aligned in our desire to continue to improve the way justice is delivered in Wales.'
The Ministry of Justice has also been examining the Thomas commission on justice report to see what can be taken forward to improve justice in Wales, and indeed is already undertaking work in relation to some of the commission's recommendations. He added that being part of the England and Wales jurisdiction has undeniably benefited Wales, making it a popular place to do business internationally. Noting your comments that, apparently, communication has broken down, how do you respond to the statement by a Ministry of Justice spokesperson only yesterday that:
'We are continuing to work closely with the Welsh Government to deliver justice in Wales, including the joint work on supporting women and young people, and taking forward some of the recommendations of the Thomas Commission'?
To conclude, given that senior police officers told me during my visit to the north-west regional organised crime unit that: all north Wales emergency planning is done with north-west England; 95 per cent or more of crime in north Wales is local or operates on a cross-border east-west basis; North Wales Police have no significant operations working on an all-Wales basis; and that evidence given to the Thomas commission by the chief constables and police and crime commissioners in Wales then was largely ignored in the commission's report, why do you think that the Thomas commission on justice report only includes a single reference to any cross-border criminality in the context of county lines, and that the solution it proposes is joint working across the four Welsh forces in collaboration with other agencies, but no reference to partners across the border, with whom most of the work is actually being done?

Mick Antoniw AC: Can I thank the Member for the very substantial number of questions and points he's raised? Can I just perhaps start by saying I do hope, of course, that when he's had an opportunity to consider what is a very, very detailed report, there will be an opening of, I believe, a less knee-jerk discussion of some of the broader issues around justice within Wales.
But can I thank the Member in particular for quite a number of his comments? As you were getting towards the end of your contribution and questions, it actually seemed clear to me that you were actually making the case for the devolution of justice. I think when we talk about some of the points that lie behind that, and some of the issues that, of course, have impacted so much on justice, and why all the issues around the delivery of justice in the broader sense are of such importance to us in terms of reform and change, let's just summarise where much of the justice system is.
We've had substantial cuts in police numbers, and the police numbers and funding are still low in real terms, and below what they were in 2010. There's been the closure of 600 courts around the UK, and a large number of courts within Wales, which has almost brought an end to the concept of local justice. There have been enormous cuts in legal aid—and even now we do not have a full commitment to the implementation of even the limited recommendations of Lord Bellamy—which limit access to justice.
We've had cuts in the investment in courts. You talked a little bit about the international legal economy—can I just say that the discussions that myself and others have had with the UK Government over the state of the civil justice centre in Cardiff have absolutely got nowhere? The state of that court, in a capital city, in an environment where we want to see the legal economy in Wales grow, is an absolute disgrace, and the total failure of the Ministry of Justice to give any attention whatsoever to justice in the capital city, in the civil justice centre, and the investment that is needed, would not happen in a devolved justice system, because we would not be allowed to get away with it. There's the creation of advice deserts, the increasing prison population, the increasing levels of violent crime and knife crime, the increasing pressure on the justice system. I have to say to the Member that his response, to some extent, is really a head-in-the-sand response—one that does not address all the issues that are raised within the paper.
We see the issue of the devolution of justice or the need for reform and change in justice as not being about who controls what, but how can we deliver it better. When you set it against that background of total failure within the justice system—a crumbling justice system—then we have to look to reform. One thing is very clear, if we just take the examples of youth justice and probation, the need for their integration with all those devolved policy responsibilities that we have is just logical. It makes absolute sense.
I very much welcome the co-operation that is taking place with the Ministry of Justice—inconsistent co-operation. We never know from one year to the next where we might go. But it's thanks to my colleague Jane Hutt that we actually have the women's residential centre in Cardiff coming to fruition. This has not happened as a result of some willingness of the Ministry of Justice; it's thanks to Jane Hutt, and in fact to other former Welsh Government Ministers. So, yes, we work with the UK Government on these issues, and we co-operate, but the issue that comes out of this paper, as I'm sure you'll agree once you've had the chance to absorb it all, is that we could do so much better, and we need radical reform.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Cwnsler Cyffredinol, I'd like to congratulate the Welsh Government for producing their vision of what a justice system should look like in Wales. I know that we have in the Minister for Social Justice and in you as Cwnsler Cyffredinol two strong advocates for a better justice system for the people of Wales. However, I have some sympathy with my friend Mark Isherwood for using the same old arguments that we hear him saying every time. Sometimes it's like bingo, isn't it? I was just waiting for them to come out. Because in fairness, it is a very long document, and could I suggest maybe perhaps a little bit too long, Cwnsler Cyffredinol? I was pleased to see that you were inviting comments and engagement from the profession and the public in the document, but can I suggest that perhaps in a document of 161 pages, you probably won't have much engagement from the public, and maybe it doesn't need to be that long? For instance, there's a full page on Flying Start, a 16-year-old programme, in a document about justice; do we really need a document so long?
Personally, I was hoping for more of a blueprint on how do we get there, how do we get justice devolved, and a firm timetable on how to improve those areas that are already devolved. Despite his current anti-devolution rhetoric, we know that Boris Johnson is not actually opposed to devolution. He wanted more powers over the criminal justice system whilst Mayor of London. There's no ideology behind that. We all know if it suits Boris Johnson in the future to have justice devolved, then he'll devolve it straight away, no matter what Mark Isherwood says time and time again. And hopefully, this rediscovery of the Conservatives' Welshness at their recent party conference will go beyond just asking for an additional bank holiday, and will include devolution parity across the United Kingdom. We can only hope, in any event.
Justice might be devolved quicker than we think. Things might happen very quickly. How ready is the Welsh Government for the devolution of justice? In the report, as I mentioned, there is no suggested timetable for the devolution of justice; it just says this:
'The process of designing the vision will...be taken forward incrementally.'
Well, what does that mean? How would you like to see justice devolved, Cwnsler Cyffredinol?
I've had to learn a lot of things in my first year in this place, and I've learnt all these fantastic new words—'optics', for example, meant something completely different to me a year ago, and I had no idea what a 'deep dive' was before coming here. Well, fortunately, those words aren't included in these documents, but we have some other lovely buzzwords in here. We have 'explore' coming up, and 'look' coming up. It doesn't provide a detailed breakdown of when or who will make things happen, but we have 'explore' at least 21 times, 'look' is included 14 times. And a phrase like 'explore radical reform', well, it sounds brilliant, doesn't it, but what does 'explore radical reform' actually mean? How will we get to that radical reform?
Another word that came over often in the document, which caused me some concern, was the word 'partnership'. I know 'partnership' is another buzzword when it comes to Welsh Government; it came up 65 times in this document. And, of course, partnership here means working with Welsh Government, rather than partnership as is usually meant with Welsh Government. But, do we really want to concentrate on partnership with the UK Government? It doesn't go any way to solve the complexity of the justice system. It doesn't solve this jagged edge. Shouldn't we be emphasising instead time and time again that we need justice devolved here, rather than this partnership with the UK Government?
I congratulate the announcement of the women's centre, but it does concern me that it won't be up and running until at least 2024. It's a five-year pilot only including women in the Swansea area, and I do really hope this will be an alternative to custody—that women that would have been sent to custody are sent there, instead of just being another community order. Another example that you gave about partnership was the much-needed Law Council of Wales. However, I am concerned about the council and I raised it when Lord Lloyd-Jones came in front of our Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee. It receives no funding at all, and it's reliant on very busy volunteers and the generosity of the Law Society. What plans do you have to ensure that the law council can continue its important work?
And finally, I was disappointed not to see any firm timetable on the implementation of the Law Commission's report into Welsh tribunals. The broad and general recommendations have been known to all of us since December 2020, and I know you agree with me, Cwnsler Cyffredinol, that, through Welsh tribunals, we really do have an opportunity to build a fair and accessible justice system here in Wales. This is within our power and the power of Welsh Government and this place. It's so exciting to be able to create the first appellate system here in Wales for many years. So, when will we see the implementation of the Law Commission's recommendations on Welsh tribunals? Diolch yn fawr.

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for, again, the variety of comments. I also didn't know what 'deep dive' meant when I came here, and I managed to bluff it through for a while and eventually found out. Also, when the term 'challenging' is used, it means pretty well impossible. [Laughter.] It reminded mea little bit of when Prince Philip attended one of the Senedd openings, and there was a conversation and someone asked him about how he managed to have conversations with everyone and knew what to say. He said, 'Well, I just find as long as I stick "community" and "sustainability" into it that seems to do the trick.' So, that's a very valid point.

Mick Antoniw AC: I think one of the starting points, of course, is that—you raised this—it's a very long document, and I agree with that. It could have been, actually, a lot longer, and I hope that the Member has seen the 'Delivering Justice for Wales: Summary and Work Programme' as well, which is a lot shorter. I think what we decided was really important was that we needed to actually present a picture of everything that is actually happening. If we're going to talk about justice, legislative justice, the justice system and social justice, we needed to be able to present a comprehensive picture to engage in a subsequent debate that takes place, because in many ways this is about hearts and minds, and it is about having a proper debate. In order for that to happen, all those various parts of the social justice and the justice system need to be engaged, as does indeed civic society. And I agree with you. Most people will never read the full thing, but they may read the bits that are relevant to them, and there will be those for whom it is important to have that overall picture.
So, I think, for the first time, we have a picture of what is actually happening in justice in Wales. We have a picture of those areas where I, working alongside the Minister for Social Justice, have actually been engaging in a wide range of areas, and to the Member's credit, the progress that is being made and the importance of it is something that we cannot ignore. So, that co-operation is very, very relevant and something that has to go on, and has resulted in improvements. The problem is, those improvements are limited. We're working in a system where it's almost as though you're being held back from doing the things and fulfilling the things you want to do. So, the drug and alcohol court, which we are sponsoring or contributing towards, in Cardiff—a very important development of a problem-solving court—we may well want to roll that out and roll it our quickly. We don't want to have to wait for a decision in London as to whether it's appropriate and whether it fits in within a plan there, because it is likely that it fits in exactly within the sorts of measures that we are taking, in devolved responsibilities in terms of housing, education, social services and so on.
The other issue, of course, is that—. Why do I say 'hearts and minds'? It's because getting justice devolved, per se, is not an easy process. I think, to some extent, it will be incremental, and the timetabling of it isn't necessarily within our hands. It is about showing a way of making justice being delivered in Wales better, and I think there are, equally, lessons here that apply to England. You referred to London—that's absolutely right. There are real benefits to reforming the justice system and the way that's delivered and co-ordinated in England as well.
Now, in terms of tribunals, of course the First Minister will in due course be making a statement in terms of the legislative programme, but I hope in this paper we've made it pretty clear that the recommendations of the Law Commission are ones that we intend to legislate on and to implement, and, of course, in terms of the increased role that we foresee for the president of tribunals. So, I just perhaps beg to ask for a little bit of patience on it, but it will be addressed, and you are absolutely right, it will be the most significant and historic change in the Welsh justice system, probably for centuries—the first time we will have ever had an appellate structure, and the potential for that to become an embryonic for change and so on.
In terms of the Law Council of Wales, well, of course, firstly, it has just been set up. I very much do welcome the support that's been given by the Law Society, which is enabling it to happen. It is, of course, independent of Welsh Government. I've attended the first three meetings, because I believe it is fundamentally important to be supporting it, to be talking about all these issues and what Welsh Government is doing, and I think the law council itself will at some stage decide what it needs to actually go into its next stage of development.I will certainly be listening very carefully to anything that they ask or any recommendations that they particularly make, but it's very important that it comes from them, rather than coming from Welsh Government itself. I hope I answered most of your points. Thank you.

Jenny Rathbone AC: The only sustainable way to improve the justice system is to reduce the number of people coming into contact with it. That's what you said, Mick Antoniw, and I completely agree with that, and we need to start with children, because we've still got nearly 18,000 children every year experiencing the trauma of their mother being sent to prison, which is 'nothing short of catastrophic'—the words of Baroness Corston, who 15 years ago wrote the seminal report that everybody agreed at the time was the way forward for women in the criminal justice system, and here we are, still talking about it. But thanks very much to Jane Hutt and others, who are actually endeavouring to make progress on this, so we do actually have a pilot women's centre in Swansea, and if it works, then we'll have one in north Wales and west Wales as well. But we certainly can't go on the way we are at the moment, because the system is completely broken. It's a national disgrace, the levels of recidivism, and should we be surprised? Rehabilitation is impossible if prisoners are locked up 23 hours a day and if every time there is a Minister who expresses a glimmer of attempt at reform, they get moved on. That's also my experience of the prison service when I tried to work with them in a former life.
So, we really do have to get on with this and it is disappointing to hear in the discourse you've already had with other Members that it's going to be 2024 before we're going to see any change, because the evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of women have suffered trauma and need support and rehabilitation to put their lives back together again, and not have the disruption of their children being separated from them and losing their homes. And we need to learn from other Scandinavian countries where people go to prison and their families go with them: the families go about their normal lives, go to school, go to work, and they themselves have to work during the week, and then they are in prison at the weekend. That is their punishment, and that seems to me a much more effective way of ensuring people are punished when they do something wrong, but are not so disrupted that they never manage to put their lives back together.
So, the 2021 concordat said that there was going to be a great deal of work done on ensuring that the women's estate and everybody who came into contact with women would be trauma informed. And I just wondered: the deadline was set for January 2022 at that time; could you tell us what progress has been made on that?

Mick Antoniw AC: Firstly, thank you for those comments. They very much agree with all the sentiments that you have expressed and, of course, the importance of the developments that have been taking place and the engagements that are there, but also how much further we actually have to go.
In terms of your last point, in terms of the progress that's being made, what I can say is that I'm engaging on a very regular basis with the Minister for Social Justice, and we work through these in terms of our respective portfolios. I'll come back to you in terms of perhaps some more detail on that. But also to say that, of course, part of the purpose of this paper is about this isn't a sort of 'end of the road' or 'this is where we are' et cetera. This is actually where we're starting from in terms of where we want to go.
Can I add one thing that probably I didn't mention properly in response to, again, Mark Isherwood, but is to some extent relevant, and that is in terms of the issue of policing? Can I say how much I welcome the actual co-operative work that has been taking place between the police and Welsh Government and agencies, and between the police and crime commissioners, because many of the joint efforts that are taking place, the joint work, and some of the progress that's been made, has actually been a direct result of that co-operation? So, it's actually showing things that are happening.
And can I also say, I very much welcome the statement that has come from the police and crime commissioners today in response, which is actually supportive of the devolution of justice, and indeed supportive of the devolution of policing? So, the four elected police and crime commissioners, a position that was created by a Conservative Government to reflect and to input into policing in communities, have come out 100 per cent in support, I believe, of the direction of where we're going. I think the argument in terms of cross-border—it hasn't impacted in terms of Northern Ireland, it hasn't impacted in terms of Scotland, there's no reason why those issues shouldn't equally apply within Wales. Cross-border working takes place in all sorts of areas, devolved and non-devolved. It takes place in the health service, which is devolved on cross border, so I don't think those are valid issues. But I think we really should pay attention to, effectively, the democratic elected voice of the police and crime commissioners, and also to welcome the fact that the police federation themselves see no reason why justice should not be devolved. Their position has developed over the years and again, I believe, is a very positive one.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: First of all, can I welcome both the statement and also the accompanying 160-odd pages? I haven't done any word counts in there, but we are looking forward, as a committee, to getting our teeth into this as well. I welcome the focus that both you and the Minister for Social Justice are bringing to this now; it's really welcome indeed.
Just to touch on a couple of issues. During the consideration of justice matters within our broad remit, we've heard evidence relevant to the further devolution of powers on justice in Wales and, indeed, policing. I note the comments made by yourself but also the previous speakers from Plaid Cymru and the Conservative benches who, in different ways, made both the case for devolution of justice.But in November last year, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, the former chair of the Commission on Justice in Wales, brought to our attention several areas where the administration of justice in Wales could be improved. The importance, for example, of having an institutional infrastructure for justice in Wales and developing various all-Wales bodies, particularly all-Wales criminal justice and all-Wales family justice boards, as both crime and family issues are so very important in Wales. So, if the Minister could helpfully expand on that.
Another key point he made was that this closer co-ordination between justice and other parts of Government, which the Counsel General has touched on in his statement today, in particular in health and education. He indicated that it would be easier to achieve that co-ordination if justice had been devolved to Wales, but in the absence of this, Minister, what more can be done—that practical collaboration you were talking about on youth justice and women's justice, and also things like the drug and alcohol court as well?
One of the final remarks Lord Thomas made during our session was in relation to civil justice. He noted that there isn't a proper civil court centre in Wales. He felt that the Cardiff Civil Justice Centre is substandard, and he hoped that the Welsh Government and the Ministry of Justice can work to give us what we properly need in this respect and what the capital city actually deserves as well.
Counsel General, we're looking at broader justice issues. We had a recent evidence session with the Law Council of Wales. We're engaging with legal practitioners on the challenges they face. We will publish a summary of our engagement very soon, which might be helpful to you, and, of course, we've engaged with you as well, and the First Minister, on the justice-related spending. So, just to turn to a couple of things here. Are you confident that you have the capacity to deliver some of these outcomes here in Wales, in particular if legislation is necessary as well in relation to the single-tier tribunal system, for example? How will you evaluate your outcomes for your justice work against spending? It's something we've touched upon in correspondence. And finally, how are you going to report back here to progress on these matters as well? But we really welcome the focus that you've given to these issues—long overdue and thoroughly welcome.

Mick Antoniw AC: Well, thank you for a number of those questions. I read with interest the evidence session of Lord Thomas with your committee, the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, because it is something that is of direct interest. I think the one thing that is important is, of course, the all-Wales bodies that were discussed some time back by the Thomas commission. Of course, many of those in the areas of crime and family justice are, in fact, now in development, established or operating. So, there is already a move and a change scenario within the justice system. So, change has been taking place.
You raise the issue in terms of the need for ongoing co-ordination of health, education, social services, housing and so on, and, of course, that is happening to a degree. The point we keep making is, of course, it is not an integrated part of a comprehensive justice system. It is picking and choosing bits and pieces that we can try and intervene in, rather than looking comprehensively over the long term and planning, rather than the whims of changing Governments or changing Ministers from time to time. And, of course, the clearer areas in terms of the areas of probation, police, problem-solving courts—the things that we would want to do to try and restore local justice, but also, increasingly, to give access to justice.
The civil justice centre issue—the Minister for Social Justice and I met with the Lord Chancellor. I think the best we had out of discussions that we've had is basically that the civil justice centre was going to get its lift repaired and possibly a water fountain. Quite frankly, I think the approach to the civil justice centre, when you look at the importance of courts, of commercial work and property work to the legal economy, when you look at centres of justice like Bristol, Manchester, and you look at London and you look at Edinburgh and, indeed, you look at Northern Ireland, all you can say is that what we have within Wales is recognised as a disgrace, but there does not appear to be any motivation or intention to do anything about it. Lord Wolfson was sympathetic, but it was quite clear that nothing was there. And I'll say this: when we're looking at the billions of pounds that are looking to be spent on refurbishing Westminster, you know, well, perhaps just a small amount of something like that coming to actually have a decent justice centre in the capital city of one of the nations of the UK would be quite important.
In terms of the legislation on tribunals, of course, the work of the Law Commission has been absolutely invaluable. Obviously, it's still being analysed and considered very carefully and, of course, further statements in due course on the legislative programme will be there. But I think that it is something that we do have to do, and that's why it was important that it was within that.
In terms of the evaluation, clearly, things that we want to do need to be evidence based and there are real issues, which are acknowledged throughout, in terms of the disaggregation of data, having proper data on which we can actually formulate policy as it applies to Wales, and isn't it a disgrace that that actually doesn't exist at the moment, that we have to basically look for various sources of trying to extract data in order to assess and evaluate justice policies? So, that is something that is being looked at very carefully in terms of how that can be improved, and there are measures already developing in terms of acquiring that data, but it should not be the case that it is a sort of add-on possibility, rather than something that goes to the core of policy.
And in reporting back, as I've said, the paper is about a conversation. This is not going away and it's something that I hope to be reporting on on a very regular basis, not least of all to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.

Finally, Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson AC: I welcome, of course, this statement today. I want to focus particularly on three areas that I think are critical to any justice system. The first is ensuring the separation of the justice system from any political interference or influence. And, of course, that's playing out in Westminster, as we speak. That is hugely important if people are going to have faith in the system: first in setting that system up and, secondly, in accessing the system if they need to.
Secondly, ensuring equal access to justice, and I'm talking about two types of access here: (1) in terms of affordability—. We know what happened to legal aid and we know what happened, therefore, to people's right, and I do believe that it's a human right, to access justice, being denied simply because they didn't have the finance to do that. And in the same vein, equal access has to be in terms of the physical access, the ability to access justice close to home, should you need it. And again, under human rights, people have enshrined in human rights the right to access justice. And we know—you mentioned it—the number of courts that have been closed. I don't imagine that they're going to be reopened, so we have to look at other means for people to access justice, and there are technical possibilities there that need to be invested in.
And finally from me, we have to follow a Welsh-specific path. We have to focus on why people find themselves in the criminal justice system—and you've talked about social justice—in the first place, and put in some prevention very, very early on. And Jenny quite rightly mentioned children; I would have mentioned children in terms of adverse childhood experiences, which play a critical part, and they are there in large numbers within the criminal justice system. So, prevention is also a huge part of this. So, stop people becoming victims in the first place, and perpetrators in the second.
So, I welcome this. There's a lot to be done. I was going to ask the question that Huw did—whether we have the ability to deliver this in terms of all that we're going to need going forward—so, I won't repeat that one. But, you know, we did look at what happens if you don't take the criminal justice system and if you start removing some of it out from fairness—and we only have to look at the probation service and the privatisation of that to see what a disaster that was. So, that's why I started where I did, and that's why I'm finishing where I'm finishing. Thank you.

Mick Antoniw AC: I thank the Member for the comments. The first point you raise is actually a very fundamental one and perhaps, on reflection, I should have made more emphasis of it. It is absolutely vital and essential that we uphold and maintain the independence of Government of the judiciary and of the court system, and any Welsh system and aspects of a Welsh system will uphold those principles. One of the key issues, again within tribunal development, will be to ensure that is it, that our tribunal system, our embryonic justice system, is not an agency of Government, but is a body that is completely independent of Government in the way it operates. That does not contradict the concept and the role in terms of how justice is actually delivered and how justice actually engages.
You raise valid points in terms of legal aid, and, of course, we have tried to ameliorate the impact of the legal aid cuts with the single advice fund. But you're absolutely right, there are two aspects to it: one is access to legal advice and legal support for those who need it; the other is the availability of those lawyers and advice workers who are capable of actually giving that support. And the fact is that, in some of our poorest communities and our rural communities, there is an increasing desert of availability, and that is why the developing of the Welsh legal economy is so important and why we are looking at things like apprenticeships and the way in which we might actually give further support to those particular firms, because they have a vital role to do as well. And, in fact, the role of those legal aid lawyers in communities is massively undervalued and under-represented when we talk about the justice system.
You talked about virtual courts, and, of course, to some extent we have had the development of that during the COVID situation. They are not a substitute for everybody, and we have to be very aware of the potential inequalities that arise. We know that something like seven per cent of over-16s do not have digital access. Twenty-five per cent of many of our communities do not have adequate digital skills. So, we have to ensure that, where appropriate, and where virtual courts can take place—. And that has been developed, to some extent, within our tribunal system—that is a good thing and a progressive thing, but it is not something that on its own can solve the issues of access. So, the equality issue has to be considered very, very carefully within that development, and I know the Member has spoken about that in the past. You're absolutely right in terms of the issue you raise in terms of early intervention and the importance of that within the broader social and justice system.
And in terms of resources, let's say this: isn't it about time we stopped investing in failure and started actually investing in prevention, in engagement and co-operation? What we have at the moment is enormous amounts of money being spent on a system that is failing, on a prison system that doesn't work, that doesn't achieve et cetera. You just think how much more effectively those resources could be used with a different direction in terms of social and justice policy. Diolch.

I thank the Counsel General for that statement. And that brings our proceedings to a close.

The meeting ended at 17:24.

QNR

Questions to the First Minister

James Evans: What assessment has the First Minister made of the impact of funding more Members of the Senedd on frontline public services?

Mark Drakeford: The clear and compelling case for Senedd reform has been repeatedly made through a series of expert panel and commission reports. The scrutiny role of the Senedd is vital to a healthy democracy, and it is right that we should ensure that it is fully equipped to carry it out.

Peredur Owen Griffiths: Will the First Minister make a statement on flexible working practices in the public sector in Wales?

Mark Drakeford: The Welsh Government supports such developments, and employers across the devolved public services in Wales work in social partnership with their recognised trade unions to offer a range of flexible working practices—for example, this includes remote working, flexi-time and condensed hours.

Jenny Rathbone: What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve food security in Wales in light of the risks to trading arrangements with the EU?

Mark Drakeford: The Minister for Rural Affairs, North Wales and Trefnydd met with UK and devolved administration Ministers on 16 May. The Minister emphasised that only by joint working can we address the risks that all nations currently face in relation to food security.